Pilots/ATC - What assistance do you expect in an RTO?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 53
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From: Arabian Gulf
Pilots/ATC - What assistance do you expect in an RTO?
Just the other day I witnessed an RTO (medium speed 
). The amount of questions being asked by ATC to the pilot, and obviously not in 'any' distress, the amount of time taken by the pilot(s) to answer him, makes me ask questions. It is posed mainly to our ATC friends, but I'd like to know what your (pilots) ATC friends think (if you get any views) and what your views are?
My ATC friend says, he wouln't hit the crash button if it was a 'low-speed RTO'. His concern was mainly a 'high-speed RTO' because of possiblity of brake fires. Good point. My further question was, could a low-speed RTO be due to an Engine-Fire? "Hmm, yeah, I suppose you're right" - Not the point.....
1. What does ATC have in their SOPs for an RTO?
2. Why all the questions? We had an RTO, not an everyday occurence. Why not hit the 'crash button' ask questions later? Give us pilots time to sort out the problem we had, that caused the RTO!
3. What do we pilots expect ATC to do?
4. Would/Should we call a MayDay if we RTO-ed for an Engine Fire?
Needless to say, we're looking into SOPs all the time to make them better - (Risk Management?).
Ta and Safe Bidings!
). The amount of questions being asked by ATC to the pilot, and obviously not in 'any' distress, the amount of time taken by the pilot(s) to answer him, makes me ask questions. It is posed mainly to our ATC friends, but I'd like to know what your (pilots) ATC friends think (if you get any views) and what your views are?My ATC friend says, he wouln't hit the crash button if it was a 'low-speed RTO'. His concern was mainly a 'high-speed RTO' because of possiblity of brake fires. Good point. My further question was, could a low-speed RTO be due to an Engine-Fire? "Hmm, yeah, I suppose you're right" - Not the point.....
1. What does ATC have in their SOPs for an RTO?
2. Why all the questions? We had an RTO, not an everyday occurence. Why not hit the 'crash button' ask questions later? Give us pilots time to sort out the problem we had, that caused the RTO!
3. What do we pilots expect ATC to do?
4. Would/Should we call a MayDay if we RTO-ed for an Engine Fire?
Needless to say, we're looking into SOPs all the time to make them better - (Risk Management?).
Ta and Safe Bidings!
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 85
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From: London UK
The correct R/T for an RTO is 'birdseed 121 stopping', you may add 'engine fire etc' to that if relevent. I might also say 'request full assistance' if I needed it.
I stopped the other day for a config. warning, and said 'xxx stopping, no assistance required' which I think atc were grateful for as it saves them asking. We wouldn't have wanted him to hit the crash button for that!
Hope this helps.
I stopped the other day for a config. warning, and said 'xxx stopping, no assistance required' which I think atc were grateful for as it saves them asking. We wouldn't have wanted him to hit the crash button for that!
Hope this helps.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 153
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From: England
Unless there is an obvious visible need for further assistance, or there is no two way communication with the aircraft in question within a reasonable amount of time, we simply ask the pilot if they require further assistance.
Saves a lot of hassle.
Saves a lot of hassle.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 53
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From: Arabian Gulf
We don't always 'know' at the time of completion of the RTO if assistance is required. We can't see brakes/tyres, (ATC in LVP?), we have to deal with the 'reason' that caused the RTO first. Some situations are obviously leading to an Evacuation- gear collapse, but for a situation with so many variables, does ATC have 'one standard'?
Just curious what ATCs SOP is in RTO.
How often is there an RTO and besides wouldn't it help the 'procedures' and ATC 'quality assuarance' evaluate the 'real drill'?
If the aircraft needs the assistance, its there!
Just curious what ATCs SOP is in RTO.
How often is there an RTO and besides wouldn't it help the 'procedures' and ATC 'quality assuarance' evaluate the 'real drill'?
If the aircraft needs the assistance, its there!
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 632
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From: Florida, USA
Can there be a STANDARD O.P. (S.O.P.) to a non-standard event??
I landed one night at Manchester, in a light twin (PA31). Controller saw my navigation lights turning off the runway - used "anticipated seperation" to clear Birdseed123 for departure - my right brake seized and the aircraft spun round...back onto the runway in front of a 737 that was just commencing its take off roll.
I shouted "Birdseed - abandon take off" on the R/T, (actually didn't get his flight number - just the Company).
How would you expect ATC to handle it???
All controller efforts were put into a sudden string of "go around"s.
I landed one night at Manchester, in a light twin (PA31). Controller saw my navigation lights turning off the runway - used "anticipated seperation" to clear Birdseed123 for departure - my right brake seized and the aircraft spun round...back onto the runway in front of a 737 that was just commencing its take off roll.
I shouted "Birdseed - abandon take off" on the R/T, (actually didn't get his flight number - just the Company).
How would you expect ATC to handle it???
All controller efforts were put into a sudden string of "go around"s.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 53
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From: Arabian Gulf
SOP's do cater for 'events', though not all. When we have a non-normal in the aircraft, we use SOP's. In an incomprehensible and unknown situation we use our judgement based on various factors (knowledge, skills and experience, among others) to arrive at the safest result. I am sure ATC does the same.
I am interested in ATC's 'Cheklist' or SOP for an RTO, which is a Non-Normal situation
I am interested in ATC's 'Cheklist' or SOP for an RTO, which is a Non-Normal situation
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 111
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From: UK
If only things were so orderly in our world that a checklist could be produced for things like an RTO or any other emergency. Controllers know their responsibilities and know which tools their have at their disposal to assist in handling the problem. How we get from the start of the incident to (hopefully) a successful conclusion is down to the individual ATCO taking all the factors into account and dealing with it in what they consider to be the best way. No checklist - just making it up as we go along (nothing new there anyway 
)
As mentioned above, if the crew can say something like "no assistance required" or if there's any possibility of something serious occuring "request assistance", that would greatly help us in making the most critical decision (AFS callout or not), and stops us having to trouble you at a time when flightdeck workload is very high. So a quick call like that can save all concerned a great deal of hassle.
[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: U R NumberOne ]
)As mentioned above, if the crew can say something like "no assistance required" or if there's any possibility of something serious occuring "request assistance", that would greatly help us in making the most critical decision (AFS callout or not), and stops us having to trouble you at a time when flightdeck workload is very high. So a quick call like that can save all concerned a great deal of hassle.
[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: U R NumberOne ]
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,432
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From: LHR/EGLL
Basically we need to know if emergency assistance is required, and also the reason for abandoning to determine whether a runway inspection is required.
From our Manual of Air Traffic Services Part. 1: "Additional surface inspections should be made: .....following an abandoned take off by a turbine engined aircraft due to an engine malfaunction, or by any aircraft due to burst tyres........or when considered necessary by ATC.
Gonzo.
From our Manual of Air Traffic Services Part. 1: "Additional surface inspections should be made: .....following an abandoned take off by a turbine engined aircraft due to an engine malfaunction, or by any aircraft due to burst tyres........or when considered necessary by ATC.
Gonzo.
