Intermediate positions / wake vortex?
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Intermediate positions / wake vortex?
Is there any defination on intermediate positions for wake vortex separation? For example at Manchester Rwy 24R, can J1 & JA be considered to be the same point (due their closeness) or if using JA, do I have to apply 3 mins in my ATP instead of 2 mins when departing behind a heavy?
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At Manchester J1 and JA, A1 and AG are considered by SRG to be the same departure point.
To quote:
"SRG have approved the following reduction in vortex wake separation; a minimum spacing of 2 minutes may be applied between successive departing aircraft where the leading aircraft is of Heavy category making a full length take off and the following aircraft is either Medium or Small category departing from Link JA for Runway 24R or Link AG for Runway 06L."
So we can use a reduced 2 minutes for your ATP from JA or AG behind a Heavy but you are entitled to 3 minutes if you want it. There is a warning over the page in the MATS 2 telling us to ask before we line you up and make sure you will take 2 minutes.
This dispensation does NOT extend to Medium types from the full length and Light types from the intersection. Nor does it include H and G or AF and B.
You can gather from all this, hopefully, that if we offer JA or AG we probably will expect 2 minutes behind a Heavy but I would always ask before committing to it.
This causes a problem also with the 757. We consider it to be a Medium for departing (Upper Mediuim for arriving). Some operators conider it a Heavy. We then have either a 1 or 2 minute separation from the same departure point dependent on how YOU categorise it. If you're taxiing out behind a 757 and you need 2 minutes, please tell us as soon as possible. You may even find yourself offered an intersection and depart before it! Oh and tell us if you are able an intersection too, that helps.
SRG haven't yet finalised what will be considered the same departure points on 24L.
Hope this helps.
(typos)
[This message has been edited by cossack (edited 18 December 2000).]
To quote:
"SRG have approved the following reduction in vortex wake separation; a minimum spacing of 2 minutes may be applied between successive departing aircraft where the leading aircraft is of Heavy category making a full length take off and the following aircraft is either Medium or Small category departing from Link JA for Runway 24R or Link AG for Runway 06L."
So we can use a reduced 2 minutes for your ATP from JA or AG behind a Heavy but you are entitled to 3 minutes if you want it. There is a warning over the page in the MATS 2 telling us to ask before we line you up and make sure you will take 2 minutes.
This dispensation does NOT extend to Medium types from the full length and Light types from the intersection. Nor does it include H and G or AF and B.
You can gather from all this, hopefully, that if we offer JA or AG we probably will expect 2 minutes behind a Heavy but I would always ask before committing to it.
This causes a problem also with the 757. We consider it to be a Medium for departing (Upper Mediuim for arriving). Some operators conider it a Heavy. We then have either a 1 or 2 minute separation from the same departure point dependent on how YOU categorise it. If you're taxiing out behind a 757 and you need 2 minutes, please tell us as soon as possible. You may even find yourself offered an intersection and depart before it! Oh and tell us if you are able an intersection too, that helps.
SRG haven't yet finalised what will be considered the same departure points on 24L.
Hope this helps.
(typos)
[This message has been edited by cossack (edited 18 December 2000).]
Guest
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Cossack, very many thanks for this info - can you suggest how I could get a hard copy of this SRG dispensation. Personally I am very happy to consider JA & J1 the same.
Re. departures following B757, I along with most of our guys like to consider it as a heavy although I do appreciate it is not. We will certinally let you know if two mins are required & we always like the offer of "G" - as long as we do not get jumped from the other end!
Separate point entirely re. the MIRSI hold. One of our training captains says we should fly a standard 1 minute hold, however the Jeppesen plates indicate a pattern on POL246R turning out at 25nm, and as most other guys see it, turning back inbound at 30nm - can you shed any light on this one?
ps. Who is it who always whistles in the background on radar?
Re. departures following B757, I along with most of our guys like to consider it as a heavy although I do appreciate it is not. We will certinally let you know if two mins are required & we always like the offer of "G" - as long as we do not get jumped from the other end!
Separate point entirely re. the MIRSI hold. One of our training captains says we should fly a standard 1 minute hold, however the Jeppesen plates indicate a pattern on POL246R turning out at 25nm, and as most other guys see it, turning back inbound at 30nm - can you shed any light on this one?
ps. Who is it who always whistles in the background on radar?
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Cossack-Please check my understanding of what you have said.
If a 145 (JA) is departing behind a 737 (full length) only two mins separation is required?If the lead aircraft were a full length 737 and the JA aircraft a Jetstream three mins is mandatory?What about a 145 (full length) and Jetstream at JA?
Who are SRG?Thanks in advance.
If a 145 (JA) is departing behind a 737 (full length) only two mins separation is required?If the lead aircraft were a full length 737 and the JA aircraft a Jetstream three mins is mandatory?What about a 145 (full length) and Jetstream at JA?
Who are SRG?Thanks in advance.
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ATP Driver
UK AIP Manchester page AD 2-EGCC-1-11 para 6.6 refers.
MIRSI hold is defined by DME not time, POL R246 D25/30 is correct.
Re the whistling.... I'll have the culprit flogged!!!
alosaurus
E145 from JA after B737 from full length has NO vortex minima. We consider the E145 a SMALL and therefore it is in the same group as the MEDIUM B737 as MEDIUM and SMALL are grouped together for departure purposes. It would be 2 minutes ONLY if you were departing on a similar route. If you lined up and wanted to wait two minutes, you would probably receive a bit of an ear-full!!!
The Jetstream (31 & 41 & Saab 340) are in the LIGHT category and are therefore not included in this dispensation.
F/L B737 followed by JA Jetstream is 3 minutes.
F/L E145 followed by JA Jetstream is 3 minutes.
The same applies to 06L at A1 and AG.
SRG = Safety Regulation Group
For 24L the "same departure points" have been defined as:
T and VA
T and VB
VA and VB
VA and U
VB and U
If anyone needs more ATC type info prior to commencement of dual-runway ops, I will, where able, provide it.
(typos)
[This message has been edited by cossack (edited 26 December 2000).]
UK AIP Manchester page AD 2-EGCC-1-11 para 6.6 refers.
MIRSI hold is defined by DME not time, POL R246 D25/30 is correct.
Re the whistling.... I'll have the culprit flogged!!!
alosaurus
E145 from JA after B737 from full length has NO vortex minima. We consider the E145 a SMALL and therefore it is in the same group as the MEDIUM B737 as MEDIUM and SMALL are grouped together for departure purposes. It would be 2 minutes ONLY if you were departing on a similar route. If you lined up and wanted to wait two minutes, you would probably receive a bit of an ear-full!!!
The Jetstream (31 & 41 & Saab 340) are in the LIGHT category and are therefore not included in this dispensation.
F/L B737 followed by JA Jetstream is 3 minutes.
F/L E145 followed by JA Jetstream is 3 minutes.
The same applies to 06L at A1 and AG.
SRG = Safety Regulation Group
For 24L the "same departure points" have been defined as:
T and VA
T and VB
VA and VB
VA and U
VB and U
If anyone needs more ATC type info prior to commencement of dual-runway ops, I will, where able, provide it.
(typos)
[This message has been edited by cossack (edited 26 December 2000).]
Guest
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In the last few days, discussions have taken place at MAN and the approval of 2 minute departure separation mentioned above, now includes LIGHT vortex category aircraft departing from JA or AG following ALL heavier types from the full length of 24R and 06L respectively.
This was apparantly meant to be the case all along, but our interpretation of the wording (in quotes my 18 Dec posting) was that it only applied to MEDIUM/SMALL types following a HEAVY.
A notice to controllers has been issued to reflect this change. If you still want 3 minutes, let us know beforehand and you'll get it or go full-length after 2 minutes.
I hope this clears up any further confusion that may have arisen.
This was apparantly meant to be the case all along, but our interpretation of the wording (in quotes my 18 Dec posting) was that it only applied to MEDIUM/SMALL types following a HEAVY.
A notice to controllers has been issued to reflect this change. If you still want 3 minutes, let us know beforehand and you'll get it or go full-length after 2 minutes.
I hope this clears up any further confusion that may have arisen.
