Can birds fly in clouds?
Thread Starter
Can birds fly in clouds?
Stooging along at 4000' over that strip of coral off the coast here playing the mental vagabond, I wondered if birds actually can or do fly in cloud.
Are their ears and semicircular canals set up the same way as ours? Can they sense acceleration of less than 0.05m/s2 (our threshold)?
What do they do when it's all foggy for days on end in say the UK? or drizzling and rain with no horizon to speak of...surely not sit on the ground and starve.
Thanks
Bored in Cairns
Are their ears and semicircular canals set up the same way as ours? Can they sense acceleration of less than 0.05m/s2 (our threshold)?
What do they do when it's all foggy for days on end in say the UK? or drizzling and rain with no horizon to speak of...surely not sit on the ground and starve.
Thanks
Bored in Cairns
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I believe that an albatross can fly while it sleeps, but that might be an urban myth. If it is true, I guess flying in cloud wouldn’t be too dissimilar. However, flying around mountainous areas may inhibit their navigational prowess.
I’m sure there are some far more knowledgeable ppruners out there who will know the answer.
I’m sure there are some far more knowledgeable ppruners out there who will know the answer.
Not so N, but still FG
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The whole subject of bird flight is very interesting but it is difficult to find much published information on the subject outside specialist scholarly journals. Apparently Lielenthal wrote about bird flight but I have not located his book. I once posted a question here asking whether any bird can aerobat or fly inverted but no-one knew the answer. As to birds flying IMC, I read in some tome (I think it was "Weather Flying" by some US bloke)that it is believed that certain species of migratory birds may be able to fly in cloud, but little is known of this, as with other aspects of bird nav techniques.
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Birds normally consider clouds as obstacles & would not fly through. However, hawks & vultures have been reported to do so by glider pilots. These 2 species happen to have the best "eyesight" of all, so it might as well depend on the thickness of the cloud.
MF
MF
Saw a "V" formation of ducks fly into a cloud once, then come tumbling out of the bottom! Whether that was due to the downdraft or the lack of the ability to fly in cloud, I am uncertain.
The threshold of perception has nothing to do with it, however - the laws of physics apply to all of the Earth's creatures! While I am certain that birds don't have spinning gyros in their heads, whether they can sense the Earth's magnetic field to the accuracy required to stay upright is another question - and I doubt that they do - so my answer is "no".
The threshold of perception has nothing to do with it, however - the laws of physics apply to all of the Earth's creatures! While I am certain that birds don't have spinning gyros in their heads, whether they can sense the Earth's magnetic field to the accuracy required to stay upright is another question - and I doubt that they do - so my answer is "no".
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What we were taught in behavioural biology is that some of the larger birds that migrate can 'navigate' through various means including:
Using the sun/ stars
Sensing earths magnetic fields
Accurate time keeping
Orientation info from semi-circular canals
I don't see why the larger birds couldn't fly through clouds..
The smaller birds that 'pilot', not navigate might have a problem though, as they use visual clues for direction finding. I might crack open the textbook if I can find it..
Tom.
Edited to make sense..
[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: tom775257 ]
Using the sun/ stars
Sensing earths magnetic fields
Accurate time keeping
Orientation info from semi-circular canals
I don't see why the larger birds couldn't fly through clouds..
The smaller birds that 'pilot', not navigate might have a problem though, as they use visual clues for direction finding. I might crack open the textbook if I can find it..
Tom.
Edited to make sense..
[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: tom775257 ]
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Pigeons can fly in cloud but usualy only do so to avoid Dastardly,Mutley,Clunk et al.
Muttley you snickering floppy eared hound,
When courage is needed, you're never around!
Those medals you wear on your moth-eaten chest,
Should be there for bungling at which you are best!
So, Stop The Pigeon, Stop The Pigeon,
Stop The Pigeon, Stop The Pigeon,
Stop The Pigeon, Stop The Pigeon
Stop that Pigeon How ?
Nab him - jab him - tab him - grab him,
Stop that pigeon now!
You silly, stop sneaking it's not worth the chance,
For you'll be returned by the seat of your pants!
And Clunk, you invent me a Thingamybob,
That catches that pigeon or I lose my job!
So, Stop The Pigeon, Stop The Pigeon,
Stop The Pigeon, Stop The Pigeon,
Stop The Pigeon, Stop The Pigeon
Stop that Pigeon How ?
Nab him - jab him - tab him - grab him,
Stop that pigeon now!
Ravens are the only birds that I know can fly inverted (or upside down as we birdwatchers say)
Muttley you snickering floppy eared hound,
When courage is needed, you're never around!
Those medals you wear on your moth-eaten chest,
Should be there for bungling at which you are best!
So, Stop The Pigeon, Stop The Pigeon,
Stop The Pigeon, Stop The Pigeon,
Stop The Pigeon, Stop The Pigeon
Stop that Pigeon How ?
Nab him - jab him - tab him - grab him,
Stop that pigeon now!
You silly, stop sneaking it's not worth the chance,
For you'll be returned by the seat of your pants!
And Clunk, you invent me a Thingamybob,
That catches that pigeon or I lose my job!
So, Stop The Pigeon, Stop The Pigeon,
Stop The Pigeon, Stop The Pigeon,
Stop The Pigeon, Stop The Pigeon
Stop that Pigeon How ?
Nab him - jab him - tab him - grab him,
Stop that pigeon now!
Ravens are the only birds that I know can fly inverted (or upside down as we birdwatchers say)
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I've seen ducks above cloud (stratus top 2000ft as far as the eye can see!) so they might have flown through it.
Also in answer to FNG, I recently saw a Canada Goose do a very impressive barrel roll to avoid my Fokker 100 last month. I've also seen a swallow do a very graceful spin, but as it had just bounced off the leading edge of the TB-10 I was flying, I doubt it counts!
spelling!
[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Flap40 ]
Also in answer to FNG, I recently saw a Canada Goose do a very impressive barrel roll to avoid my Fokker 100 last month. I've also seen a swallow do a very graceful spin, but as it had just bounced off the leading edge of the TB-10 I was flying, I doubt it counts!
spelling!
[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Flap40 ]
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Well, a collegue of mine had a birdstrike while flying IMC. It made quite a lot of damage to his F70. Could have been a swan or big bird from sesamestreet. But one thing was for sure: that bird was flying IMC! Made me wonder how that bird did it...
I was sitting on a lake once with a Beaver on floats, waiting for the weather to clear. The ceiling was maybe a hundred feet, and a couple hundred yards viz. All of a sudden, I heard a bunch of geese honking, then you could hear wingbeats, followed by splashing out on the water. The fog cleared in an hour or so, and there were about twenty Canada geese swimming around just down the shore.
I've caught up to a flock of geese on top of a cloud layer with an Otter. (Took awhile
) So I'd say yes, some birds fly in cloud.
I've caught up to a flock of geese on top of a cloud layer with an Otter. (Took awhile
) So I'd say yes, some birds fly in cloud.
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Stallie - what's wrong? Are backpackers out of season? 
In a lighter vein, those of you who have replied to this thread might also enjoy
CATIII (and duck too)
Ever thought how CATIII got its name? http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimat...c&f=4&t=004616
Nothing on bird navigation in my Audubon Handbook How To Identify Birds, but there were 14 pages on flight behaviour, including . . .
Soaring
To save energy during long migrations, or while circling high in the air and searching for food, many birds soar on outstretched, motionless wings. When air currents are deflected upward by long mountain ridges, some of these birds can travel for miles without a single wingbeat.
Dihedral Soaring
While most soaring birds hold their outstretched wings flat, a few raptors soar with the wings held in a shallow angle or V called a dihedral - a term borrowed from aviation. As these birds soar on dihedral wings, the usually appear unsteady, swaying from side to side. [Made me think - now, just what came first, the dihedral winged bird or the dihedral winged aeroplane?
]
Beeline Flight
Some birds have a regular, rhythmic, almost mechanical wingbeat and a perfectly straight flight path, as if the bird were being pulled rapidly along a taut wire. This "beeline" flight is characteristic of some large birds with relatively slow wingbeats, as well as some of the tiny hummingbirds.
Flying with Rapid Wingbeats
Smaller birds tend to have more rapid wingbeats than larger ones, but some birds have fast wingbeats because their wings are very small or short in relation to the size of the body. Although swifts have long wings, the bend of the wing is very close to the body, and they also beat their wings rapidly.
Stiff-winged Flight
When some seabirds flap their wings in normal flight, the angle of the wing does not bend, creating a striking, stiff-winged effect. The birds use their stiffly helf wings to coast on small air currents over the waves. [Illustrated with photographs of albatrosses, albatrossi, whatever
]
Follow-the-leader Flapping
Some water birds that fly in lines may coast for several seconds without flapping their wings. When the lead bird flaps its wings, each bird in the line then flaps its wings in turn, as if copying the bird just in front of it. A wave of flapping moves down the line.
Simulaneous Banking
In some species, the birds in a fast moving flock bank in a highly coordinated way. All the birds change position at almost exactly the same instant. A distant flock of sandpipers seems to appear and disappear, as the birds reveal their dark underparts then their pale undersides to the observer.
In a lighter vein, those of you who have replied to this thread might also enjoy
CATIII (and duck too)
Ever thought how CATIII got its name? http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimat...c&f=4&t=004616
Nothing on bird navigation in my Audubon Handbook How To Identify Birds, but there were 14 pages on flight behaviour, including . . .
Soaring
To save energy during long migrations, or while circling high in the air and searching for food, many birds soar on outstretched, motionless wings. When air currents are deflected upward by long mountain ridges, some of these birds can travel for miles without a single wingbeat.
Dihedral Soaring
While most soaring birds hold their outstretched wings flat, a few raptors soar with the wings held in a shallow angle or V called a dihedral - a term borrowed from aviation. As these birds soar on dihedral wings, the usually appear unsteady, swaying from side to side. [Made me think - now, just what came first, the dihedral winged bird or the dihedral winged aeroplane?
]Beeline Flight
Some birds have a regular, rhythmic, almost mechanical wingbeat and a perfectly straight flight path, as if the bird were being pulled rapidly along a taut wire. This "beeline" flight is characteristic of some large birds with relatively slow wingbeats, as well as some of the tiny hummingbirds.
Flying with Rapid Wingbeats
Smaller birds tend to have more rapid wingbeats than larger ones, but some birds have fast wingbeats because their wings are very small or short in relation to the size of the body. Although swifts have long wings, the bend of the wing is very close to the body, and they also beat their wings rapidly.
Stiff-winged Flight
When some seabirds flap their wings in normal flight, the angle of the wing does not bend, creating a striking, stiff-winged effect. The birds use their stiffly helf wings to coast on small air currents over the waves. [Illustrated with photographs of albatrosses, albatrossi, whatever
]Follow-the-leader Flapping
Some water birds that fly in lines may coast for several seconds without flapping their wings. When the lead bird flaps its wings, each bird in the line then flaps its wings in turn, as if copying the bird just in front of it. A wave of flapping moves down the line.
Simulaneous Banking
In some species, the birds in a fast moving flock bank in a highly coordinated way. All the birds change position at almost exactly the same instant. A distant flock of sandpipers seems to appear and disappear, as the birds reveal their dark underparts then their pale undersides to the observer.
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There is another mystery I have been racking my brains with. How does a large flock of birds fly in perfect formation? 
I believe fish achieve this by sensing minute pressure changes in the water created by the surrounding fish. Air on the otherhand doesn't allow for such rapid pressure waves to travel through it, so how do a flock of 50 or so birds achieve simultaneous banking?
I believe fish achieve this by sensing minute pressure changes in the water created by the surrounding fish. Air on the otherhand doesn't allow for such rapid pressure waves to travel through it, so how do a flock of 50 or so birds achieve simultaneous banking?
Chief Tardis Technician
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I once saw an Owl fly inverted thru a barb wire fence, I dont know if it managed to roll out tho. The car had gone past by then, and I think the air blast from the car had something to do with the aerobatics. Does this count.
Not sure about birds in clouds tho, I've never seen any.
Not sure about birds in clouds tho, I've never seen any.
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Never met any birds in cloud but one sad bird story that I read of comes to mind.
The wings of the Razorbill are, for some reason which the experts cannot determine, very slowly decreasing in size.
To compensate for this they have to fly faster and this means larger breast muscles to increase the flapping rate. Increase size of breast muscles puts up the weight and thus the wing loading which requires more speed and bigger breast muscles for faster flapping, and so on and so on. The experts did not offer a prediction as to when the poor thing would finally be grounded like the penguin.
The wings of the Razorbill are, for some reason which the experts cannot determine, very slowly decreasing in size.
To compensate for this they have to fly faster and this means larger breast muscles to increase the flapping rate. Increase size of breast muscles puts up the weight and thus the wing loading which requires more speed and bigger breast muscles for faster flapping, and so on and so on. The experts did not offer a prediction as to when the poor thing would finally be grounded like the penguin.
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Saw a tv documentary a number of years ago that showed birds doing aeros, aparently just for the fun of it.
Also saw a crow do a barrel roll and looking really pissed off afterwards when it got caught in the vortex of a rotating 757.
They certainly fly at night as a late bird of unknown manufacture can vouch after denting my radome at 500ft on the approach.
I reckon that they all do an IR at a very early age otherwise how could they fly in controlled airspace?
Also saw a crow do a barrel roll and looking really pissed off afterwards when it got caught in the vortex of a rotating 757.
They certainly fly at night as a late bird of unknown manufacture can vouch after denting my radome at 500ft on the approach.
I reckon that they all do an IR at a very early age otherwise how could they fly in controlled airspace?