engine out ferry flight

[ATC Watcher]

Are there strict regulations to allow a take off and ferry an aircraft with one engine inoperative on a 4 engine aircraft or is is left to the Aircraft operator / Airline ?
The example I saw was a freighter , no pax ,

[wrench1]

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher

Are there strict regulations to allow a take off and ferry an aircraft with one engine inoperative on a 4 engine aircraft or is is left to the Aircraft operator / Airline ?
The example I saw was a freighter , no pax ,

On this side there is Part 91.611 for guidance.

[tdracer]

Ferry flights are almost by definition means no paying passengers.
Making it 'minimum crew' is pretty much up to the operator - although it would make sense in most cases.

[Uplinker]

Yes there are strict regulations and procedures, but don't know if they are company or CAA. I would imagine they are designed by the aircraft manufacturer.

We practised this scenario in the BAe 146 SIM; for the event of an engine failure on take-off leaving only 2 engines out of the 4.

Therefore obviously empty positioning flights only - no payload at all !

[ATC Watcher]

Thanks for the replies ,especially the FAA Part 91. text . The case here was an engine blew up on take off , fire extinguishers used, , cargo off loaded ,, prop feathered , take off on 3 engines back to base ( 8 hours flight) odd to watch but the FAA regulations clearly allow this I see., under some conditions, which I am sure were met . Just I had never seen this done before ,

[deltahotel]

Did one on a C130 about 35 years ago!

[ShyTorque]

Once had to carry out a single engine departure and transit on a twin engined Puma HC1 helicopter after one failed to start. It required a running takeoff to get airborne. Crew only and approx 20nm, but it was overwater apart from the last three nm or so. But that was under RAF regulations. It required the Air Officer Commanding’s authorisation but he willingly granted it because he had actually been on the aircraft when the second engine wouldn’t start. We flew back to base, fetched a spare aircraft and went back to recover him and his entourage.

[Tu.114]

Spantax lost one of their CV990s at Stockholm trying such a ferry in 1970.

https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/cras...kholm-5-killed

[FullWings]

I’ve never done one but talking from people who have, Vmcg, Vmca and V1/V2 can be quite different to normal, especially on a heavy, sometimes leading to an awkward gap during takeoff where the options are very limited. For us it used to be volunteer managers/trainers only, given the risk exposure. I think on a long runway at sea level it probably works but add in a bit of WAT and things get complicated.

[B2N2]

We have a select group of SkyGods that are blessed to do this.
Certainly not us mere mortal line pilots.

[dixi188]

Did a three engine ferry flight on the Electra under FAA regs. but the UK CAA would not allow it as there were no certified performance figures.
Did an Accelerate - Stop windmill sart at EDI when a starter motor failed. We went back to the start of the runway and took-off normally.

[safetypee]

Manufacturers approval (certification), including performance tables is required for ferry with an engine operative. This should also define engine and aircraft handling techniques, i.e. initial acceleration with symmetric engines and increasing power on the 'odd engine' to achieve maximum power at Vmcg.

Configurations other than engine failure require considerations of lateral weight distribution, control margin, …

[pineteam]

Few years back an old 747 200 or 400 (can’t remember) had engine failure in Macau. They dispatched the aircraft a few days after on 3 engines. Not a big deal on a quad.

[Musician]

Originally Posted by Tu.114

Spantax lost one of their CV990s at Stockholm trying such a ferry in 1970.

https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/cras...kholm-5-killed

That accident shows how much safety margins are reduced in that situation; then you don't have them when you need them.

[DaveReidUK]

I watched a Viscount perform a 3-engined takeoff many years ago. Prudently, the engineers had removed the prop from the dead engine.

That said, I've been airborne in both 4- and 2-engined aircraft with a windmilling prop.

[ancientaviator62]

We did one on the RAF C130K from Seeb to Akrotiri ! I also authorised one from Mogadishu to Mombasa during Op Vigour. Both times basic five man crew (all men then !) plus the G/E.

[Meikleour]

I did a 3-engine ferry on a Vanguard(BEA) in the early '70s with an outboard prop feathered.

This was from BHX to LHR and my abiding memory is of how little runway remained at lift-off!

[Senior Controller]

Originally Posted by Tu.114

Spantax lost one of their CV990s at Stockholm trying such a ferry in 1970.

https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/cras...kholm-5-killed

I had forgotten that one, but Spantax had a lot of accidents in that period . I was on duty when one of their CV990 did a belly landing in Cologne ( forgot to lower the gear ) they raised the fuselage on the runway and lowered the gear and the Capt wanted to bring the aircraft back to Palma with its ( mostly germans ) pax but the Germans BFS grounded it . After few days of negotiations they allowed it to be ferried to Zurich ( if I remember correctly ) for repairs .
Real cowboys but they welcomed controllers to fly for free with them , we did used them a lot and they got lots of directs in exchange .
A gone by era .

.

[albatross]

During UNOSOM 2 daze in Somalia +- 1994 there was a C-130 that had a little problem that led to a damaged #4 and a FODDED #3 at Baledogle Airport.
Departed with 1, 2, and 3 then feathered # 3 and completed the 530 Nm 2 engine ferry to Nairobi.

[WITCHWAY550]

I recall from ancient annals an early model Lear that attempted to depart in Libya with one engine inoperable/one engine running. I don't think it ended well.