Human factors : why is flying so tiring
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ziltoidia... indeed'd.
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I’ve long wondered whether the concept of Time Dilation has anything to do with that very specific type of tiredness one feels after a flight.
The attempt by your body or brain to account for and remedy the minuscule but measurable time lost after the high velocity travel may well fatigue it in a unique way.
Its noticeable enough as an inactive passenger, but must be worse for the flight crew who have to work as well.
I can’t find any research or mention of the effects of Time Dilation on ISS crew or astronauts. I suppose if it was a problem the effects would be felt far more severely by them than airline pilots?
The attempt by your body or brain to account for and remedy the minuscule but measurable time lost after the high velocity travel may well fatigue it in a unique way.
Its noticeable enough as an inactive passenger, but must be worse for the flight crew who have to work as well.
I can’t find any research or mention of the effects of Time Dilation on ISS crew or astronauts. I suppose if it was a problem the effects would be felt far more severely by them than airline pilots?
short flights long nights
3 days in a row? That would be amazing; the norm in Europe LCC model is 5 or 6 in a row with max fdp days. Then you get 2/3 maybe 4 days off if you’re lucky where you’re not supposed to have a normal life but just rest and get ready for the next smash. It is unhealthy to wake up for days on end at 3/4 am or to go to sleep at 1 am after a late rotation.
Worst mistake of my professional career was to leave the corporate world to fly airliners; I was flying less than yearly half hours in executive compared to airlines and yes I was making half the money but my QoL was 100 times better, even with a non existent roster being on call and I was enjoying every flight. Moving back to corporate now, airlines (except for old school majors with great contracts) are a big no-no in terms of lifestyle.
Worst mistake of my professional career was to leave the corporate world to fly airliners; I was flying less than yearly half hours in executive compared to airlines and yes I was making half the money but my QoL was 100 times better, even with a non existent roster being on call and I was enjoying every flight. Moving back to corporate now, airlines (except for old school majors with great contracts) are a big no-no in terms of lifestyle.
I’ve long wondered whether the concept of Time Dilation has anything to do with that very specific type of tiredness one feels after a flight.
To add a mere second to your age relative to friends and family on the ground, you'd have to fly west around the globe 3.7 million times!
Several decades of LH has burnt out my body clock, I think. Occasionally I get a tired period during the middle of the day but most it’s about surviving nights out of bed. Strangely, I still can sleep 8-10hrs when given the opportunity but at work it can get a bit fragmented.
I have done 9-5 office jobs as well, and definitely felt a bit sleepy Friday afternoons, especially after a liquid lunch...
I have done 9-5 office jobs as well, and definitely felt a bit sleepy Friday afternoons, especially after a liquid lunch...
Thread Starter
Thanks everybody for the input.
I can see two explanations listed : mental or physical.
I would rather opt for the mental explanation because this never happens when I'm sitting around all day long at home.
I fly for a very large operation with routes all over Europe (just on my type), but for personal, quality of life, reasons I signed up for an option with very few routes that I end up knowing by heart. It's a bit boring to fly always the same route. Even going everywhere in Europe it would just mainly be sit around waiting (at least for the flight).
I never regret my choice of working in the airline because it's still my dream job, the quality of life and the technical aspects suit me very well, but I just don't understand why the boredom has a physical expression.
On a typical day, I will try to be on my phone as much as possible between flights as I feel it helps me unwind, but maybe it's a wrong impression and I should try stopping.
Or, maybe the other explanation is a bit of mental pressure (even if bored, one has to be able to react if anything goes sideways), and/or the pressure (my airplane goes up to 5000 to 8000ft cabin altitude depending on the flight). The real boredom comes from flying 4-leg days. On the last day of a 4-5 day shift, sometimes I don't even remember if I did the departure briefing.
About the physical side, for context I am 28, rather slim but I don't work out or do sport really regularly. I still live a somewhat active lifestyle. For example just this week I spent two entire days out, walking, shopping, sightseeing.. I ran with my sister's dog. I often walk instead of taking the tube, even up to 2-4km depending on the time on my hands. I have a two story apartment and often forget things downstairs or upstairs... My girlfriends keep me very busy as well.
I try to avoid eating bull**** all the time (which is difficult because our colleagues bring us exactly that) but I'm not very keen on it so still end up for example ordering desert at a restaurant and I don't always turn it down at private dinners.
I put on some weight last year (1-2kg) when I decided to eat more and work out at the same time (to gain mass), part of it should be muscle and part of it fat.. I looked very slim and wanted to diminish that (my BMI is between 20 and 21).
My favourite drink at work is tea, I try to avoid hot water as I was told they don't clean the hot water tank, but still take some hot tea sometimes. The rest of the time, I put one tea bag and keep it in my glass with cold mineral water for 4-5 hours, only before 4pm. After that time I will tend to drink cold herbal tea (no caffeine).
I don't like coffee. I will sometimes ask for a coke which has the caffeine, but try to avoid it for sugar reasons, just like apple juice. Tomato juice is a drink of choice because no sugar.
Regarding sports, I could do more, I admit it could have some benefits. Last time I tried to motivate myself to do sports, it lasted for 3-4 months only, then I stopped for different reasons. I usually jog around my home, I have several loops between 1-3km. I bought some very good shoes for skydiving but I don't really intend on doing many more jumps (I did seven, until the first solo flight) because of it taking a lot of time, and the activity not being very rewarding for a beginner. I could use these shoes for jogging, which would help me greatly reduce the risk of any pain (which would come automatically if I jogged to much with bad shoes).
I also wanted to work out but I durably hurt my elbow and stopped immediately (I have a little pain in the elbow when doing pull ups, which I think is preventing me from lifting weights...) I should maybe go see a sports doctor to ask why the pain isn't going away and how to lift weight.
From a health point of view, is it better to work out or jog ?
From a fitness (esthetic) point of view, I think the best is to work out 100% first to gain mass then jog to eliminate the fat, but it's very demanding to do so at a good level. I also bought 4000€ of measure clothing, so it would be a bit stupid to put on a significant amount of weight (be it muscle or fat) and having to throw away the brand new suits and shirts...
But it seems to take a long term dedication that I will never have.
Finally, regarding my sleep patterns, I am a late owl. So when on my own, I will sleep typically from 3 to 12 (9 hours), and maybe from midnight to twelve if very tired from an early wakeup. When I have an early wakeup from home, I have trouble sleeping before midnight, so I typically end up sleeping 4-6 hours before my first day. If there is a second early, I will have much less trouble sleeping early and try to have at least 6 hours if there is no third early, 7 hours if there is. And 8 hours if there is a fourth early (even if it means going to sleep at 8pm without eating)
I don't work for a very demanding carrier, I work airline but no more than 13 days per month. I can't say I'm overbooked. If I worked 18 days (the maximum) I would make 30% more as well which would be very motivating.
I can see two explanations listed : mental or physical.
I would rather opt for the mental explanation because this never happens when I'm sitting around all day long at home.
I fly for a very large operation with routes all over Europe (just on my type), but for personal, quality of life, reasons I signed up for an option with very few routes that I end up knowing by heart. It's a bit boring to fly always the same route. Even going everywhere in Europe it would just mainly be sit around waiting (at least for the flight).
I never regret my choice of working in the airline because it's still my dream job, the quality of life and the technical aspects suit me very well, but I just don't understand why the boredom has a physical expression.
On a typical day, I will try to be on my phone as much as possible between flights as I feel it helps me unwind, but maybe it's a wrong impression and I should try stopping.
Or, maybe the other explanation is a bit of mental pressure (even if bored, one has to be able to react if anything goes sideways), and/or the pressure (my airplane goes up to 5000 to 8000ft cabin altitude depending on the flight). The real boredom comes from flying 4-leg days. On the last day of a 4-5 day shift, sometimes I don't even remember if I did the departure briefing.
About the physical side, for context I am 28, rather slim but I don't work out or do sport really regularly. I still live a somewhat active lifestyle. For example just this week I spent two entire days out, walking, shopping, sightseeing.. I ran with my sister's dog. I often walk instead of taking the tube, even up to 2-4km depending on the time on my hands. I have a two story apartment and often forget things downstairs or upstairs... My girlfriends keep me very busy as well.
I try to avoid eating bull**** all the time (which is difficult because our colleagues bring us exactly that) but I'm not very keen on it so still end up for example ordering desert at a restaurant and I don't always turn it down at private dinners.
I put on some weight last year (1-2kg) when I decided to eat more and work out at the same time (to gain mass), part of it should be muscle and part of it fat.. I looked very slim and wanted to diminish that (my BMI is between 20 and 21).
My favourite drink at work is tea, I try to avoid hot water as I was told they don't clean the hot water tank, but still take some hot tea sometimes. The rest of the time, I put one tea bag and keep it in my glass with cold mineral water for 4-5 hours, only before 4pm. After that time I will tend to drink cold herbal tea (no caffeine).
I don't like coffee. I will sometimes ask for a coke which has the caffeine, but try to avoid it for sugar reasons, just like apple juice. Tomato juice is a drink of choice because no sugar.
Regarding sports, I could do more, I admit it could have some benefits. Last time I tried to motivate myself to do sports, it lasted for 3-4 months only, then I stopped for different reasons. I usually jog around my home, I have several loops between 1-3km. I bought some very good shoes for skydiving but I don't really intend on doing many more jumps (I did seven, until the first solo flight) because of it taking a lot of time, and the activity not being very rewarding for a beginner. I could use these shoes for jogging, which would help me greatly reduce the risk of any pain (which would come automatically if I jogged to much with bad shoes).
I also wanted to work out but I durably hurt my elbow and stopped immediately (I have a little pain in the elbow when doing pull ups, which I think is preventing me from lifting weights...) I should maybe go see a sports doctor to ask why the pain isn't going away and how to lift weight.
From a health point of view, is it better to work out or jog ?
From a fitness (esthetic) point of view, I think the best is to work out 100% first to gain mass then jog to eliminate the fat, but it's very demanding to do so at a good level. I also bought 4000€ of measure clothing, so it would be a bit stupid to put on a significant amount of weight (be it muscle or fat) and having to throw away the brand new suits and shirts...
But it seems to take a long term dedication that I will never have.
Finally, regarding my sleep patterns, I am a late owl. So when on my own, I will sleep typically from 3 to 12 (9 hours), and maybe from midnight to twelve if very tired from an early wakeup. When I have an early wakeup from home, I have trouble sleeping before midnight, so I typically end up sleeping 4-6 hours before my first day. If there is a second early, I will have much less trouble sleeping early and try to have at least 6 hours if there is no third early, 7 hours if there is. And 8 hours if there is a fourth early (even if it means going to sleep at 8pm without eating)
I don't work for a very demanding carrier, I work airline but no more than 13 days per month. I can't say I'm overbooked. If I worked 18 days (the maximum) I would make 30% more as well which would be very motivating.
It reads like you're doing all the right things. I wouldn't worry too much.
I found in most new "types" of flying, there was an adjustment period. For context I went night freight - Biz/GA - Airline over about a 10 year period and each time I found there were peaks & troughs in my mood & fatigue, almost exactly at the point you're at now, 8 - 16 months in. My theory is its a bit of your body & mind adapting to new conditions & partly a tension release after converting to a new type, new company etc. In my case it lasted about 6 months, then passed.
Keep doing what you're doing, ride it out, and I think you'll be fine. If it does get too much on particular days, use your companies FRMS and report fatigued.
I found in most new "types" of flying, there was an adjustment period. For context I went night freight - Biz/GA - Airline over about a 10 year period and each time I found there were peaks & troughs in my mood & fatigue, almost exactly at the point you're at now, 8 - 16 months in. My theory is its a bit of your body & mind adapting to new conditions & partly a tension release after converting to a new type, new company etc. In my case it lasted about 6 months, then passed.
Keep doing what you're doing, ride it out, and I think you'll be fine. If it does get too much on particular days, use your companies FRMS and report fatigued.
Just some observations - I am getting the impression from your last post that maybe you are not allowing yourself enough down-time to relax. It sounds as if you have a very busy life ! Your working out with weights sounds busy to me. FWIW I do 30 press-ups and 50 sit-ups every week-day, and about a 10km run (jog) every week, sometimes twice a week. This keeps me nicely toned for seemingly not much effort. I do the daily exercises when I get up, and need no equipment for them, and no booking or gym time - and they only take me about 5 mins per day. That regime is quite gentle and not demanding, and is all I need to achieve a good body shape. I would definitely buy some proper running trainers though - you don't want to cause your joints any problems by running in the wrong footwear.
Your reliance on your phone to relax - I think that is probably having the opposite effect. They say that use of screens in the evening can make the body stay awake. I would try having time with no screens at all to relax properly. Leave your phone at home when you go out for a jog or a walk.
I personally find that when not at work; if I go the sleep much after 2300, I pass a threshold and my brain then stays awake - obviously a learned response to years of night flights, when my brain goes, "Oh, are we staying awake tonight? OK then." So maybe try going to sleep earlier in the evening and no screens beforehand. The blue light from the screens and the content you are looking at before trying to sleep might well be keeping your brain active and causing your sleep problems. A hot bath and a hot milky drink can help induce sleep.
Sitting around at home is not the same as sitting in an airliner cockpit - in the latter there is the constant low-level stress that tdracer spoke about, with moments of high stress during take-off and landing. Also the noise levels in a cockpit are very fatiguing. Interesting that train drivers do not operate for more than 5 hours before having a 30 minute break.
Regarding hot drinks - if the water has been boiled, it should be safe enough. Britons were less prone to health issues from bad water in the past, because they boiled their water to make tea. (Cold tea sounds horrible!).
I make healthy bread (with a machine) and healthy sandwiches to eat at work. Or salad in a Tupperware box - cut the salad up with kitchen scissors, which is quick and easy to prepare - and easy to eat with just a fork. I often put frozen cooked prawns in. The prawns act as ice to keep the salad cool in my bag, and when I am ready to eat the salad some hours later, the prawns have defrosted. That way, least I know what is in the food I eat.
Yes, you should see a sports physio to sort out your arm - might be able to get that under your airline health insurance.
Your reliance on your phone to relax - I think that is probably having the opposite effect. They say that use of screens in the evening can make the body stay awake. I would try having time with no screens at all to relax properly. Leave your phone at home when you go out for a jog or a walk.
I personally find that when not at work; if I go the sleep much after 2300, I pass a threshold and my brain then stays awake - obviously a learned response to years of night flights, when my brain goes, "Oh, are we staying awake tonight? OK then." So maybe try going to sleep earlier in the evening and no screens beforehand. The blue light from the screens and the content you are looking at before trying to sleep might well be keeping your brain active and causing your sleep problems. A hot bath and a hot milky drink can help induce sleep.
Sitting around at home is not the same as sitting in an airliner cockpit - in the latter there is the constant low-level stress that tdracer spoke about, with moments of high stress during take-off and landing. Also the noise levels in a cockpit are very fatiguing. Interesting that train drivers do not operate for more than 5 hours before having a 30 minute break.
Regarding hot drinks - if the water has been boiled, it should be safe enough. Britons were less prone to health issues from bad water in the past, because they boiled their water to make tea. (Cold tea sounds horrible!).
I make healthy bread (with a machine) and healthy sandwiches to eat at work. Or salad in a Tupperware box - cut the salad up with kitchen scissors, which is quick and easy to prepare - and easy to eat with just a fork. I often put frozen cooked prawns in. The prawns act as ice to keep the salad cool in my bag, and when I am ready to eat the salad some hours later, the prawns have defrosted. That way, least I know what is in the food I eat.
Yes, you should see a sports physio to sort out your arm - might be able to get that under your airline health insurance.
Thread Starter
It reads like you're doing all the right things. I wouldn't worry too much.
I found in most new "types" of flying, there was an adjustment period. For context I went night freight - Biz/GA - Airline over about a 10 year period and each time I found there were peaks & troughs in my mood & fatigue, almost exactly at the point you're at now, 8 - 16 months in. My theory is its a bit of your body & mind adapting to new conditions & partly a tension release after converting to a new type, new company etc. In my case it lasted about 6 months, then passed.
Keep doing what you're doing, ride it out, and I think you'll be fine. If it does get too much on particular days, use your companies FRMS and report fatigued.
I found in most new "types" of flying, there was an adjustment period. For context I went night freight - Biz/GA - Airline over about a 10 year period and each time I found there were peaks & troughs in my mood & fatigue, almost exactly at the point you're at now, 8 - 16 months in. My theory is its a bit of your body & mind adapting to new conditions & partly a tension release after converting to a new type, new company etc. In my case it lasted about 6 months, then passed.
Keep doing what you're doing, ride it out, and I think you'll be fine. If it does get too much on particular days, use your companies FRMS and report fatigued.
I'm not too worried about it, it's tiring while I'm there but has little consequence apart from discomfort.
Cold tea sounds horrible!
It's not black tea, it's green tea with a flavor, and with cold water it gives a very slight taste
Thank you for your sports routine. It's true that push ups and sit ups are not so demanding to do, I should do them in the morning.
