Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

LTC course requirements

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

LTC course requirements

Old 15th Sep 2022, 20:26
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
LTC course requirements

Does anyone have the reference for the minimum training required to be a Line Training Captain under EASA? I am struggling to find exact references beyond “nominated by operator” and the requirement for a RHS check? I assume some form of simulator and aircraft training but can’t find any details, though I admit my ability to wade through EASA “easy access” docs is limited.

Is it ultimately a matter between the operator and the NAA of choice when writing their OM D?
Jwscud is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2022, 07:55
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Just Around The Corner
Posts: 1,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hi, try to search here under the FCL section , this website is not anymore updated but always useful .
https://www.part-aero.com
Nick 1 is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2022, 16:39
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: uk
Posts: 920
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It’s incredibly vague as my searching has shown! If you search ‘line training captain requirements’ I came up with AMC for Moldova CAA. Good a place as any to start I guess.
deltahotel is online now  
Old 16th Sep 2022, 18:57
  #4 (permalink)  
Cak
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: At home
Age: 41
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
EASA doesn't recognise LTC definition. There are no requirements besides company's OM-D, which must be accepted by NAA
Cak is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2022, 20:19
  #5 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks all - similarly all I found was a requirement for individuals conducting line checks &c to be nominated and listed in OM D and for them to receive CRM/EBT training depending on the type of checking the operator uses. Found similar AMCs via Google.

Seems odd that there are no real external requirements for such a widely used position.
Jwscud is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2022, 09:52
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Dubai, once... now London
Age: 48
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jwscud View Post
Thanks all - similarly all I found was a requirement for individuals conducting line checks &c to be nominated and listed in OM D and for them to receive CRM/EBT training depending on the type of checking the operator uses. Found similar AMCs via Google.

Seems odd that there are no real external requirements for such a widely used position.
As You’ve posted EASA “regulates” Line check captains to make it cheaper for airlines to run line checks. By some kind of strange interpretation the same applies to LTCs who are also more or less trained for LIFUS. This all thing became widely used by low cost operators. Imagine the difference in costs between training an LTC with a 2/3 days course including sim and a few line flights under supervision and a TRI who has to go through the whole course, get an AOC in the SIM and an AOC in the aircraft, plus you get an official instructor rating so if you dump your airline shortly afterwards then you got a rating for free. Bottom line is: make it cheap, make it fast, in the end you’re only putting a 200 hours cadet with a line captain who got an 8 hours classroom training and a 4 hour sim session in intervention training. It’s all ok.
nickler is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2022, 15:22
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever I lay my hat
Posts: 3,494
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
My last UK airline required the "core" course to be LTC. That's the 25 hours teaching and learning common to all instructor ratings.
rudestuff is online now  
Old 17th Sep 2022, 18:11
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Dubai, once... now London
Age: 48
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rudestuff View Post
My last UK airline required the "core" course to be LTC. That's the 25 hours teaching and learning common to all instructor ratings.
That’s because they were doing things properly but EASA land embraces many different points of view…
nickler is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2022, 18:13
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: IRS NAV ONLY
Posts: 1,202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If you are designing a training program from scratch, just think of what kind of knowledge/skills you think an LTC would need - I’m sure as long as you’ve put some thought into it, it should be acceptable to your authority.

A full T&L course isn’t a bad start, combined with a session or two (or three) in the sim, consisting of RHS (re)familiarisation and check, UPRT, takeover techniques, patter/intervention, rejected/balked landings, etc.

A full TRI course for an LTC is a huge overkill, IMHO. An LTC doesn’t need to know how to operate the sim, teach abnormal procedures, most manuevers (including UPRT), or even most of the normal procedures to be fair, as the student should have demonstrated this by the time they arrive at the line training stage - how else would they have passed their LST? Let alone AoC in the aircraft, even a lot of TRI/Es don’t have that, unless they do base training or ZFTT.

It’s much more productive to focus on skills they actually need to be an effective LTC.
FlyingStone is online now  
Old 17th Sep 2022, 18:33
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Dubai, once... now London
Age: 48
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by FlyingStone View Post
If you are designing a training program from scratch, just think of what kind of knowledge/skills you think an LTC would need - I’m sure as long as you’ve put some thought into it, it should be acceptable to your authority.

A full T&L course isn’t a bad start, combined with a session or two (or three) in the sim, consisting of RHS (re)familiarisation and check, UPRT, takeover techniques, patter/intervention, rejected/balked landings, etc.

A full TRI course for an LTC is a huge overkill, IMHO. An LTC doesn’t need to know how to operate the sim, teach abnormal procedures, most manuevers (including UPRT), or even most of the normal procedures to be fair, as the student should have demonstrated this by the time they arrive at the line training stage - how else would they have passed their LST? Let alone AoC in the aircraft, even a lot of TRI/Es don’t have that, unless they do base training or ZFTT.

It’s much more productive to focus on skills they actually need to be an effective LTC.
I have a different opinion.

Having a complete instructor background makes overall a big difference in the way the LIFUS is conducted. Learning how to conduct briefings, debriefings and handling a sim improves situational awareness, workload and time management and communication. I have trained new TRIs on the line to conduct LIFUS and have recently started training new LTCs to do the same. It is a different story. Ok 2 different airlines, where TRI training took 3 months and somewhere else the LTC training takes 3 days. The end result is a bit different.
nickler is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2022, 20:15
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: IRS NAV ONLY
Posts: 1,202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Previous experience obviously makes things different. You could also argue that having an LTC experience would make for a better TRI. Similarly someone with extensive FI/IRI background would typically perform better in the role of LTC or TRI from day 1 compared to just a normal experienced line captain.

The question is, where do we draw the line?
FlyingStone is online now  
Old 18th Sep 2022, 13:44
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blue sky
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by nickler View Post
I have a different opinion.

Having a complete instructor background makes overall a big difference in the way the LIFUS is conducted. Learning how to conduct briefings, debriefings and handling a sim improves situational awareness, workload and time management and communication. I have trained new TRIs on the line to conduct LIFUS and have recently started training new LTCs to do the same. It is a different story. Ok 2 different airlines, where TRI training took 3 months and somewhere else the LTC training takes 3 days. The end result is a bit different.
Workload, time management and communcation is a captain's responsability on the flightdeck from day one, you don't need to be TRI or LTC for that. It is the first thing a TRI/LTC will have to "guide" when flying with upgrading people flying in the left seat for the first time. So it's understandable that a company might require some time in the left seat before you're eligible to be an LTC or TRI.

The companies I know will make TRI's undergo TRI training in the simulator and start LIFUS flying already before that as it takes a long time to complete the simulator training. When you start out as a TRI, it's the same "swimming" feeling as an LTC when you do LIFUS for the first time. Both TRI and LTC have at that point received exactly the same teaching & learning training. There is no "new" status that makes you gain experience in the simulator first as a TRI, you're "thrown in the LIFUS flying" like any other starting LTC.

And as mentioned before, having LTC experience before jumping into a TRI position is a gigantic advantage.
BraceBrace is offline  
Old 19th Sep 2022, 13:11
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Dubai, once... now London
Age: 48
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BraceBrace View Post
Workload, time management and communcation is a captain's responsability on the flightdeck from day one, you don't need to be TRI or LTC for that. It is the first thing a TRI/LTC will have to "guide" when flying with upgrading people flying in the left seat for the first time. So it's understandable that a company might require some time in the left seat before you're eligible to be an LTC or TRI.

The companies I know will make TRI's undergo TRI training in the simulator and start LIFUS flying already before that as it takes a long time to complete the simulator training. When you start out as a TRI, it's the same "swimming" feeling as an LTC when you do LIFUS for the first time. Both TRI and LTC have at that point received exactly the same teaching & learning training. There is no "new" status that makes you gain experience in the simulator first as a TRI, you're "thrown in the LIFUS flying" like any other starting LTC.

And as mentioned before, having LTC experience before jumping into a TRI position is a gigantic advantage.
If you had read my post better you would have seen that I mentioned “improves” which an undeniable matter of fact; observing 2 trainees in the front whilst operating the sim and taking notes improves workload management, when and how to communicate and situational awareness.
Historically speaking in the former JAA Land LTC were the so called “nominated commanders”; Cpts nominated by the operator to support line training mainly dealing with pilots in the last phases of training prior to their final line check.
My personal experience having dealt/dealing in training TRIs and LTCs is that a good experience in the backseat of the sim makes the transition to “the real thing” smoother and with consolidated teaching techniques in addition to higher quality facilitation and debriefing skills. The “abuse” of LTCs in having to deal with 200 hours cadet derives from the need to find something quick and cheap for airlines. I do know for a fact that many serious operators conduct LTCs training of high quality and get their guys ready for the challenge but since EASA does not put any barrier to this, you can find operators with some questionable training programs with a ground school day, one sim and 4 sectors. And obviously the LTC has a solid 500 hours PIC to compensate this short training. This is also part of the race to the bottom. You want instructors? Good give the guys a rating. If they run away with a TRI in their pocket in means you’re a crappy operator, as simple as that.
nickler is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2022, 11:02
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The middle
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Totally agree with Nickler, when I did my U.K. TRE standards course with the CAA twenty years ago they were saying that it is far better to start as a TRI in the sim. Learn to instruct, and really learn all the emergencies and how to deal with them, safe in the back of a simulator with a freeze button before trying it on a dark winters night in an aeroplane with 200 passengers and a 250 hour trainee in the RHS and a 350 hr “safety pilot” on the jump seat.

Twenty years later I work for a major U.K. operator who still refuse to let someone be a TRI in the sim before they’ve been a line trainer, despite the fact that the core course is the same.
excrab is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2022, 13:37
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: If this is Tuesday, it must be?
Posts: 640
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
despite the fact that the core course is the same.
Actually even that is considerably better than a lot of companies do in the way of LTC training. 1 day intro if you're lucky, sometimes it's "oh, you were a PPL instructor weren't you? That'll do!"
BizJetJock is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2022, 21:11
  #16 (permalink)  
Cak
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: At home
Age: 41
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BizJetJock View Post
Actually even that is considerably better than a lot of companies do in the way of LTC training. 1 day intro if you're lucky, sometimes it's "oh, you were a PPL instructor weren't you? That'll do!"
Well, at least PPL instructor did teaching and learning part
And many companies are not doing even that to nominate LTCs
Cak is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.