LTC course requirements
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LTC course requirements
Does anyone have the reference for the minimum training required to be a Line Training Captain under EASA? I am struggling to find exact references beyond “nominated by operator” and the requirement for a RHS check? I assume some form of simulator and aircraft training but can’t find any details, though I admit my ability to wade through EASA “easy access” docs is limited.
Is it ultimately a matter between the operator and the NAA of choice when writing their OM D?
Is it ultimately a matter between the operator and the NAA of choice when writing their OM D?
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Just Around The Corner
Posts: 1,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi, try to search here under the FCL section , this website is not anymore updated but always useful .
https://www.part-aero.com
https://www.part-aero.com
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks all - similarly all I found was a requirement for individuals conducting line checks &c to be nominated and listed in OM D and for them to receive CRM/EBT training depending on the type of checking the operator uses. Found similar AMCs via Google.
Seems odd that there are no real external requirements for such a widely used position.
Seems odd that there are no real external requirements for such a widely used position.
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Dubai, once... now London
Age: 48
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jwscud
Thanks all - similarly all I found was a requirement for individuals conducting line checks &c to be nominated and listed in OM D and for them to receive CRM/EBT training depending on the type of checking the operator uses. Found similar AMCs via Google.
Seems odd that there are no real external requirements for such a widely used position.
Seems odd that there are no real external requirements for such a widely used position.
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Dubai, once... now London
Age: 48
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by rudestuff
My last UK airline required the "core" course to be LTC. That's the 25 hours teaching and learning common to all instructor ratings.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: IRS NAV ONLY
Posts: 1,202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you are designing a training program from scratch, just think of what kind of knowledge/skills you think an LTC would need - I’m sure as long as you’ve put some thought into it, it should be acceptable to your authority.
A full T&L course isn’t a bad start, combined with a session or two (or three) in the sim, consisting of RHS (re)familiarisation and check, UPRT, takeover techniques, patter/intervention, rejected/balked landings, etc.
A full TRI course for an LTC is a huge overkill, IMHO. An LTC doesn’t need to know how to operate the sim, teach abnormal procedures, most manuevers (including UPRT), or even most of the normal procedures to be fair, as the student should have demonstrated this by the time they arrive at the line training stage - how else would they have passed their LST? Let alone AoC in the aircraft, even a lot of TRI/Es don’t have that, unless they do base training or ZFTT.
It’s much more productive to focus on skills they actually need to be an effective LTC.
A full T&L course isn’t a bad start, combined with a session or two (or three) in the sim, consisting of RHS (re)familiarisation and check, UPRT, takeover techniques, patter/intervention, rejected/balked landings, etc.
A full TRI course for an LTC is a huge overkill, IMHO. An LTC doesn’t need to know how to operate the sim, teach abnormal procedures, most manuevers (including UPRT), or even most of the normal procedures to be fair, as the student should have demonstrated this by the time they arrive at the line training stage - how else would they have passed their LST? Let alone AoC in the aircraft, even a lot of TRI/Es don’t have that, unless they do base training or ZFTT.
It’s much more productive to focus on skills they actually need to be an effective LTC.
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Dubai, once... now London
Age: 48
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by FlyingStone
If you are designing a training program from scratch, just think of what kind of knowledge/skills you think an LTC would need - I’m sure as long as you’ve put some thought into it, it should be acceptable to your authority.
A full T&L course isn’t a bad start, combined with a session or two (or three) in the sim, consisting of RHS (re)familiarisation and check, UPRT, takeover techniques, patter/intervention, rejected/balked landings, etc.
A full TRI course for an LTC is a huge overkill, IMHO. An LTC doesn’t need to know how to operate the sim, teach abnormal procedures, most manuevers (including UPRT), or even most of the normal procedures to be fair, as the student should have demonstrated this by the time they arrive at the line training stage - how else would they have passed their LST? Let alone AoC in the aircraft, even a lot of TRI/Es don’t have that, unless they do base training or ZFTT.
It’s much more productive to focus on skills they actually need to be an effective LTC.
A full T&L course isn’t a bad start, combined with a session or two (or three) in the sim, consisting of RHS (re)familiarisation and check, UPRT, takeover techniques, patter/intervention, rejected/balked landings, etc.
A full TRI course for an LTC is a huge overkill, IMHO. An LTC doesn’t need to know how to operate the sim, teach abnormal procedures, most manuevers (including UPRT), or even most of the normal procedures to be fair, as the student should have demonstrated this by the time they arrive at the line training stage - how else would they have passed their LST? Let alone AoC in the aircraft, even a lot of TRI/Es don’t have that, unless they do base training or ZFTT.
It’s much more productive to focus on skills they actually need to be an effective LTC.
Having a complete instructor background makes overall a big difference in the way the LIFUS is conducted. Learning how to conduct briefings, debriefings and handling a sim improves situational awareness, workload and time management and communication. I have trained new TRIs on the line to conduct LIFUS and have recently started training new LTCs to do the same. It is a different story. Ok 2 different airlines, where TRI training took 3 months and somewhere else the LTC training takes 3 days. The end result is a bit different.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: IRS NAV ONLY
Posts: 1,202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Previous experience obviously makes things different. You could also argue that having an LTC experience would make for a better TRI. Similarly someone with extensive FI/IRI background would typically perform better in the role of LTC or TRI from day 1 compared to just a normal experienced line captain.
The question is, where do we draw the line?
The question is, where do we draw the line?
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blue sky
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by nickler
I have a different opinion.
Having a complete instructor background makes overall a big difference in the way the LIFUS is conducted. Learning how to conduct briefings, debriefings and handling a sim improves situational awareness, workload and time management and communication. I have trained new TRIs on the line to conduct LIFUS and have recently started training new LTCs to do the same. It is a different story. Ok 2 different airlines, where TRI training took 3 months and somewhere else the LTC training takes 3 days. The end result is a bit different.
Having a complete instructor background makes overall a big difference in the way the LIFUS is conducted. Learning how to conduct briefings, debriefings and handling a sim improves situational awareness, workload and time management and communication. I have trained new TRIs on the line to conduct LIFUS and have recently started training new LTCs to do the same. It is a different story. Ok 2 different airlines, where TRI training took 3 months and somewhere else the LTC training takes 3 days. The end result is a bit different.
The companies I know will make TRI's undergo TRI training in the simulator and start LIFUS flying already before that as it takes a long time to complete the simulator training. When you start out as a TRI, it's the same "swimming" feeling as an LTC when you do LIFUS for the first time. Both TRI and LTC have at that point received exactly the same teaching & learning training. There is no "new" status that makes you gain experience in the simulator first as a TRI, you're "thrown in the LIFUS flying" like any other starting LTC.
And as mentioned before, having LTC experience before jumping into a TRI position is a gigantic advantage.
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Dubai, once... now London
Age: 48
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by BraceBrace
Workload, time management and communcation is a captain's responsability on the flightdeck from day one, you don't need to be TRI or LTC for that. It is the first thing a TRI/LTC will have to "guide" when flying with upgrading people flying in the left seat for the first time. So it's understandable that a company might require some time in the left seat before you're eligible to be an LTC or TRI.
The companies I know will make TRI's undergo TRI training in the simulator and start LIFUS flying already before that as it takes a long time to complete the simulator training. When you start out as a TRI, it's the same "swimming" feeling as an LTC when you do LIFUS for the first time. Both TRI and LTC have at that point received exactly the same teaching & learning training. There is no "new" status that makes you gain experience in the simulator first as a TRI, you're "thrown in the LIFUS flying" like any other starting LTC.
And as mentioned before, having LTC experience before jumping into a TRI position is a gigantic advantage.
The companies I know will make TRI's undergo TRI training in the simulator and start LIFUS flying already before that as it takes a long time to complete the simulator training. When you start out as a TRI, it's the same "swimming" feeling as an LTC when you do LIFUS for the first time. Both TRI and LTC have at that point received exactly the same teaching & learning training. There is no "new" status that makes you gain experience in the simulator first as a TRI, you're "thrown in the LIFUS flying" like any other starting LTC.
And as mentioned before, having LTC experience before jumping into a TRI position is a gigantic advantage.
Historically speaking in the former JAA Land LTC were the so called “nominated commanders”; Cpts nominated by the operator to support line training mainly dealing with pilots in the last phases of training prior to their final line check.
My personal experience having dealt/dealing in training TRIs and LTCs is that a good experience in the backseat of the sim makes the transition to “the real thing” smoother and with consolidated teaching techniques in addition to higher quality facilitation and debriefing skills. The “abuse” of LTCs in having to deal with 200 hours cadet derives from the need to find something quick and cheap for airlines. I do know for a fact that many serious operators conduct LTCs training of high quality and get their guys ready for the challenge but since EASA does not put any barrier to this, you can find operators with some questionable training programs with a ground school day, one sim and 4 sectors. And obviously the LTC has a solid 500 hours PIC to compensate this short training. This is also part of the race to the bottom. You want instructors? Good give the guys a rating. If they run away with a TRI in their pocket in means you’re a crappy operator, as simple as that.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The middle
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Totally agree with Nickler, when I did my U.K. TRE standards course with the CAA twenty years ago they were saying that it is far better to start as a TRI in the sim. Learn to instruct, and really learn all the emergencies and how to deal with them, safe in the back of a simulator with a freeze button before trying it on a dark winters night in an aeroplane with 200 passengers and a 250 hour trainee in the RHS and a 350 hr “safety pilot” on the jump seat.
Twenty years later I work for a major U.K. operator who still refuse to let someone be a TRI in the sim before they’ve been a line trainer, despite the fact that the core course is the same.
Twenty years later I work for a major U.K. operator who still refuse to let someone be a TRI in the sim before they’ve been a line trainer, despite the fact that the core course is the same.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: If this is Tuesday, it must be?
Posts: 640
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
despite the fact that the core course is the same.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: At home
Age: 41
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by BizJetJock
Actually even that is considerably better than a lot of companies do in the way of LTC training. 1 day intro if you're lucky, sometimes it's "oh, you were a PPL instructor weren't you? That'll do!"
And many companies are not doing even that to nominate LTCs
