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757 pilot had history of hairy landings

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757 pilot had history of hairy landings

Old 3rd Aug 2020, 14:06
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757 pilot had history of hairy landings

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/...4677-276530305

There comes a time when the operator says enough is enough and the decision made to terminate a pilot;s employment if it is obvious the bloke simply cannot fly. Sympathy for the pilot is all very well but to duck shove the problem down the line is cowardly.
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 06:27
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If I read that right, the FO had amassed 60 landings over 80 sectors and still couldnít figure it out? Whatís the ďstandardĒ line training footprint across the sea?

Here, we do 25 or 15 hours on narrowbodies. Not sure about how the widebody guys do it. Granted, the FO in question had very low time, but the most Iíve ever heard of is someone new (first jet) getting 80ish hours of training. After that, the company usually cuts you off. This pilot got 285 hours.

Unfortunate that it didnít work out for this person, but I suppose this is the system working as intended. I wish the person the best in future endeavours.
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 08:16
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40 sectors is the minimum for someone without experience.
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 09:27
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A sad story.

I know of one person who passed the SIM but could not land the real 'plane, but in all my own type ratings, I have found the real 'plane in real weather much easier to handle and land than the SIM.

I can't help wondering how this F/O was taught how to land a 757 in the first place. I wonder even if they were even looking in the right places for the right cues as they flared.

I remember aeons ago when learning to fly Dash 8s; the TRI telling me to "follow him through" on the controls as he landed* This helped me tune my own technique and get the hang of it. Some people can respond to spoken instructions, others like me, learn much better by feeling or observing the correct actions.

Cannot follow through on an Airbus FBW, but this was a 757 with conventional yokes, so the same thing could have been done.

Another factor is the attitude of the training. If a person is struggling, what they need is a kindly, understanding soul to help them through their difficulty. If instead, they get a shouty person : "come on, concentrate, do it right!", they will likely not improve but get worse. Not saying that was the case here.



*Hello Stan
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 10:20
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There's a small number they are in the wrong place. Considering the time, effort and money the airline spent on him they would be wanting to push him through with a slightest excuse but if they couldn't then it must be really unsafe. It's very rare that somebody gets rejected because one can't land. Atlas Air accident is a lesson not to ignore repeated poor performance.
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 10:21
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That pitch up tendency after touchdown on the 757 is something you really have to watch out for, especially when combined with the less than linear, rather poor pitch control at low speeds


You have to make a conscious effort to carefully lower the nose or it can really thump down, this has caused serious airframe damage in the past


This was not a problem when using F25 however, perhaps the slightly higher VREF and lower drag contributed to greater pitch authority


It was approved at my operator and I used it all the time, runway length allowing


Oh and 238 passengers on a 752, that’s a bit tight !
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 10:47
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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
It's very rare that somebody gets rejected because one can't land.......
But.... that's the "hardest" part of flying?
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 15:34
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Stilton:

238 occupants, not pax. 3 pilots, maybe 5 cabin crew, so about 230 pax. I have flown this type with 235 pax seats.
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 19:13
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It is a 235 config, and is comfortable at that.

I see they have presumed the sex of the FO, which they have incorrect, not that it makes a jot of difference.

Here, we do 25 or 15 hours on narrowbodies
25 hours in the type of flying done here would have equates to a maximum of 10 sectors, and probably more like 6 or 8 sectors. Hours are irrelevant, it’s sectors that count. This FO had the minimum required (40 sectors), she was fortunate to work for an airline that really tried hard to help and gave her more training, however she was in that very small minority that just didn’t get it and there comes a point where that training has to cease. I know that she would have had some expert coaching, I know the trainers that would have been helping her, there would have been nothing wrong with that element I can assure you.
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 19:26
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I am going to be straight with my question: was gender part of the selection criteria?
Jet2 has to be the company that asked me the highest number of questions concerning my gender, sexual orientation and ethnicity. And they are not the only UK carrier I've applied to in my life.
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 19:34
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Wow. Didn’t even know they could ask those things. Here, they can ask ethnicity, but it’s always optional.

How would anyone outside of HR know if her sex was part of the selection criteria?
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 19:37
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Interesting to see that the FAA goes by hours and landings, while the UK goes by sectors. That seems more sensible than our system, but thatíd certainly increase the time spent in training.
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 19:52
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Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
Wow. Didnít even know they could ask those things. Here, they can ask ethnicity, but itís always optional.

How would anyone outside of HR know if her sex was part of the selection criteria?
Well, it's a trend in Europe at least. Look at easyJet and their Amy Johnson initiative. And if they had to make people redundant now simply based on LIFO, most of the pilots would be female. No, they just won't do that. They'd rather use a matrix and put in it various variables.
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 22:11
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Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
I am going to be straight with my question: was gender part of the selection criteria?
Jet2 has to be the company that asked me the highest number of questions concerning my gender, sexual orientation and ethnicity. And they are not the only UK carrier I've applied to in my life.
You can ask that question, but I really hope that no recruitment or HR department would divulge information like that on any forum.

The 757 is a big beast for a low houred pilot. Most get through it, but we have had some with landing issues in the past. Both genders.
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Old 5th Aug 2020, 03:38
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That’s a shame , but a third attempt at a line check, would have had me poised like a gunfighter , ready to take over .
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Old 5th Aug 2020, 04:06
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Exactly what's required when flying out of these third world countries

.... according to information supplied by the operator, the Supervising Training Captain “had already failed the First Officer because of high pitch attitude before he was aware of the tail strike”.

I bet it was after that
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Old 5th Aug 2020, 06:20
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The article said the captain should have intervened earlier. How’s one supposed to train or evaluate a student on landings if intervention is done at the first sign of trouble?
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Old 5th Aug 2020, 06:30
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Given the history of the trainee pilot I agree with the article.

Once again she's making the same mistake, the one written in red all over her training file: why would you, the training captain, allow the safety of the passengers to be put in jeopardy? On the other hand I understand that's tough be the one terminating the trainee's career. Still, emotions should have little or no place in a flightdeck.
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Old 5th Aug 2020, 08:23
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Fair point on the FOís history, but I like to give the CA the benefit of the doubt. Dynamic phase of flight. The CA may have been flying with this person for the first time (admittedly a stretch after 285 hours).
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Old 5th Aug 2020, 08:24
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Initiating the flare at 100ft would be a clue that this was going to end badly. IIRC 6degrees at 48ft suggests the flare has been made and it is only because the TLs are still open that it didnít fall out if the sky. The pressure playing on the trainee by the time they get to this stage would be so intense but with the final goal within touching distance they feel they are almost there...a bad place to be and falls upon the training management to make those hard calls. Tough time for all involved, not least the TC that could have and, in my opinion, should have intervened earlier. I wasnít there and I understand how quickly these situations develop plus the added stress of The FO being in the last chance saloon but I like the gunslinger analogy above...there was form here so should not have been a surprise. Good learning for the rest of us.
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