Strategy for Thunderstorms on Approach
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2009
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From: Canada
Strategy for Thunderstorms on Approach
Hi guys, I would like to get your take on the topic of thunderstorms around the final approach.
I have found that a number of pilots like to get below the cloud base as early as possible it the cloud base vs MSA allows that. Even so would you ever fly under the red of a CB? Is this even a good strategy anyway?
Do you have any limit on how close a CB could be to the airport for you to decide to shoot the approach (Assuming the final approach is clear)?
Thanks
I have found that a number of pilots like to get below the cloud base as early as possible it the cloud base vs MSA allows that. Even so would you ever fly under the red of a CB? Is this even a good strategy anyway?
Do you have any limit on how close a CB could be to the airport for you to decide to shoot the approach (Assuming the final approach is clear)?
Thanks
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Having a margarita on the beach
Hi,
have a look at Airbus_Safety_first_magazine_22, from page 24 there is a lot of valuable information covering your questions and not necessarily Airbus related.
have a look at Airbus_Safety_first_magazine_22, from page 24 there is a lot of valuable information covering your questions and not necessarily Airbus related.
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: GA, USA
Angle the radar up 10 degrees and I do t fly under red/magenta.
Wind direction and storm movement?
Published missed approach clear or not?
Alternate escape route that allows to stay in VMC conditions?
I’ve done visual approaches with an alternate missed approach coordinated with ATC prior to commencement.
Wind direction and storm movement?
Published missed approach clear or not?
Alternate escape route that allows to stay in VMC conditions?
I’ve done visual approaches with an alternate missed approach coordinated with ATC prior to commencement.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,775
Likes: 353
From: UK
If you have doubts about an approach don’t do it; wait hold.
You cannot guarantee that the radar or even visual will detect a down-draft or outflow windshear.
If a Cb has been over the runway, allow 15 min for the runway to drain, otherwise use flooded runway landing performance.
https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia.../SAFO19003.pdf
Heed the advice of those who survived.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/12k90qtpqf...shear.pdf?dl=0
You cannot guarantee that the radar or even visual will detect a down-draft or outflow windshear.
If a Cb has been over the runway, allow 15 min for the runway to drain, otherwise use flooded runway landing performance.
https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia.../SAFO19003.pdf
Heed the advice of those who survived.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/12k90qtpqf...shear.pdf?dl=0
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: Malvern, UK
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,013
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From: Isla Grande
Angle the radar up 10 degrees and I do t fly under red/magenta.
Wind direction and storm movement?
Published missed approach clear or not?
Alternate escape route that allows to stay in VMC conditions?
I’ve done visual approaches with an alternate missed approach coordinated with ATC prior to commencement.
Wind direction and storm movement?
Published missed approach clear or not?
Alternate escape route that allows to stay in VMC conditions?
I’ve done visual approaches with an alternate missed approach coordinated with ATC prior to commencement.
Yep. I have done this many times at busy airports. 99% success while others diverted. Just coordinate with ATC. If you say "due to weather" local noise abatement procedures are voided.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,775
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From: UK
B2N2, gearlever,
Because you have done something before without event, does not change the inherent risk in the operation, thus never assuring success in the future.
The pre approach assessment is that of the risk in the plan depending on what is seen (or not seen) and judged as a justifiable course of action - what if this doesn’t work out.
It’s a judgement - yours and should not assume too much about anyone else’s involvement including the operational pressures such as a busy airport.
Because you have done something before without event, does not change the inherent risk in the operation, thus never assuring success in the future.
The pre approach assessment is that of the risk in the plan depending on what is seen (or not seen) and judged as a justifiable course of action - what if this doesn’t work out.
It’s a judgement - yours and should not assume too much about anyone else’s involvement including the operational pressures such as a busy airport.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 39
From: Wanderlust
There is no flat yes or no. D191 L1011 at DFW on approach when passing through a single CB encountered a severe microburst and fatally crashed. That accident led to development of predictive winds sheer. All CBs are not same. If the CB is well developed with top closer to 30000 then it's dangerous and best avoided.
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Here
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,633
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From: USA
In Florida, we get thunderstorms all summer long. The ATC here are top notch, and can seemingly thread a needle through the storm cells, and find a generally smooth ride.
My airline has provided us pretty good guidance on operating when there are storms by the field. One thing we like to do is carry a comfortable amount of fuel for the inevitable hold. (8-11,000lb of planned arrival fuel is not uncommon for an afternoon arrival in an A319/320/321). That being said, if there's a large cell on final, we'd rather land with a tailwind, with alternate missed approach instructions, than fly under the red.
My airline has provided us pretty good guidance on operating when there are storms by the field. One thing we like to do is carry a comfortable amount of fuel for the inevitable hold. (8-11,000lb of planned arrival fuel is not uncommon for an afternoon arrival in an A319/320/321). That being said, if there's a large cell on final, we'd rather land with a tailwind, with alternate missed approach instructions, than fly under the red.
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Tring, UK
I think there are many categories of storm, each with their own characteristics and risks. What level of maturity the cell(s) have, the environmental lapse rate, humidity, depth, etc. The effects range from benign to lethal.
If you can actually see what’s going on and combine that with the radar picture, it is possible to manage the risk but it takes a lot of experience, knowledge and readiness to throw it away if you don’t like it. As per the previous poster, a storm over/proximate to the airfield is generally worth holding off for. On my type a lightning strike needs ~6 engineer hours of checking before it returns to service, so waiting 20mins for the storm to dissipate is cheap insurance...
If you can actually see what’s going on and combine that with the radar picture, it is possible to manage the risk but it takes a lot of experience, knowledge and readiness to throw it away if you don’t like it. As per the previous poster, a storm over/proximate to the airfield is generally worth holding off for. On my type a lightning strike needs ~6 engineer hours of checking before it returns to service, so waiting 20mins for the storm to dissipate is cheap insurance...
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: UK
“During the approach the crew lost situational awareness, with their attention channelised, and the aircraft entered the storm cell with heavy rain after passing the MAP. The PIC did not arrest the excessive rate of descent, and flew the aircraft increasingly below the Glideslope.”
From http://www.aic.gov.pg/pdf/FinRpts/20...l%20Report.pdf
Air Niugini Aircraft crash, Truk Lagoon
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,766
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From: GA, USA
B2N2, gearlever,
Because you have done something before without event, does not change the inherent risk in the operation, thus never assuring success in the future.
The pre approach assessment is that of the risk in the plan depending on what is seen (or not seen) and judged as a justifiable course of action - what if this doesn’t work out.
It’s a judgement - yours and should not assume too much about anyone else’s involvement including the operational pressures such as a busy airport.
Because you have done something before without event, does not change the inherent risk in the operation, thus never assuring success in the future.
The pre approach assessment is that of the risk in the plan depending on what is seen (or not seen) and judged as a justifiable course of action - what if this doesn’t work out.
It’s a judgement - yours and should not assume too much about anyone else’s involvement including the operational pressures such as a busy airport.
If you approach it as something “you’ve done it many times before” then that attitude is wrong.
If you approach it as a challenge unique to that set of circumstances then you’re simply being a professional.
By doing this you develop a skill set.
Last edited by B2N2; 19th July 2019 at 09:00.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,775
Likes: 353
From: UK
B2N2,
Your appropriate professional view is only one of a range of outcomes dependent on how experiences in challenging situations are used. Risks assessed and adequately mitigated, the exposure reviewed and memorised, can contribute to professional expertise - professionalism.
Alternatives include inadequate risk assessment and mitigation, but with an acceptable outcome the exposure could be stored as a valuable lesson learnt (don’t do that again), or as an overconfident self-assessment of future ability. The latter is a powerful human bias - egocentric bias, also confirmation bias, choice supportive bias.
In an anonymous forum we cannot determine which of the outcomes is being related without further explanation, thus the reader could be adversely influenced if less adequate posts are taken at face value.
Question #1 represents an alternative approach, requesting information and explanation.
Statements of ‘I have done that before’ do not relate the actual situation to the experience gained, or the personal attitude of the poster - training capt or troll.
Biased memories can be hazardous because an unwary newbie could be adversely influenced.
Many posts in forums are opinion - ‘opinion is the lowest form of human knowledge’ Bill Bullard
In addition “I’m entitled to my opinion” is used to shelter beliefs that should have been abandoned. It becomes shorthand for “I can say or think whatever I like”. “You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to what you can argue for.” https://theconversation.com/no-youre...r-opinion-9978
My humble, argued, opinion.
Your appropriate professional view is only one of a range of outcomes dependent on how experiences in challenging situations are used. Risks assessed and adequately mitigated, the exposure reviewed and memorised, can contribute to professional expertise - professionalism.
Alternatives include inadequate risk assessment and mitigation, but with an acceptable outcome the exposure could be stored as a valuable lesson learnt (don’t do that again), or as an overconfident self-assessment of future ability. The latter is a powerful human bias - egocentric bias, also confirmation bias, choice supportive bias.
In an anonymous forum we cannot determine which of the outcomes is being related without further explanation, thus the reader could be adversely influenced if less adequate posts are taken at face value.
Question #1 represents an alternative approach, requesting information and explanation.
Statements of ‘I have done that before’ do not relate the actual situation to the experience gained, or the personal attitude of the poster - training capt or troll.
Biased memories can be hazardous because an unwary newbie could be adversely influenced.
Many posts in forums are opinion - ‘opinion is the lowest form of human knowledge’ Bill Bullard
In addition “I’m entitled to my opinion” is used to shelter beliefs that should have been abandoned. It becomes shorthand for “I can say or think whatever I like”. “You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to what you can argue for.” https://theconversation.com/no-youre...r-opinion-9978
My humble, argued, opinion.
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,766
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From: GA, USA
So what’s your point?
Question was posted and I gave an answer and without any knowledge of my background and experience you’re calling that unsafe.
Question was posted and I gave an answer and without any knowledge of my background and experience you’re calling that unsafe.
Last edited by B2N2; 25th July 2019 at 00:32.
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Nirvana..HAHA..just kidding but,if you can tell me where it is!
Our lot stipulate not to continue an approach if visibility reduces to 2000M or less in rain,when associated with presence of CB.
Slightly off the original post subject,but idea is to avoid likelihood of flooded runway associated with tropical downpour,and therefore,possibility of aquaplaning..
Slightly off the original post subject,but idea is to avoid likelihood of flooded runway associated with tropical downpour,and therefore,possibility of aquaplaning..
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,013
Likes: 15
From: Isla Grande
Our lot stipulate not to continue an approach if visibility reduces to 2000M or less in rain,when associated with presence of CB.
Slightly off the original post subject,but idea is to avoid likelihood of flooded runway associated with tropical downpour,and therefore,possibility of aquaplaning..
Slightly off the original post subject,but idea is to avoid likelihood of flooded runway associated with tropical downpour,and therefore,possibility of aquaplaning..
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
From: shiny side up
In Florida, we get thunderstorms all summer long. The ATC here are top notch, and can seemingly thread a needle through the storm cells, and find a generally smooth ride.
sharing winds through the network....golden.