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-   -   Strategy for Thunderstorms on Approach (https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/623614-strategy-thunderstorms-approach.html)

Airmann 17th July 2019 06:54

Strategy for Thunderstorms on Approach
 
Hi guys, I would like to get your take on the topic of thunderstorms around the final approach.

I have found that a number of pilots like to get below the cloud base as early as possible it the cloud base vs MSA allows that. Even so would you ever fly under the red of a CB? Is this even a good strategy anyway?

Do you have any limit on how close a CB could be to the airport for you to decide to shoot the approach (Assuming the final approach is clear)?

Thanks

sonicbum 17th July 2019 07:45

Hi,

have a look at Airbus_Safety_first_magazine_22, from page 24 there is a lot of valuable information covering your questions and not necessarily Airbus related.

B2N2 17th July 2019 10:03

Angle the radar up 10 degrees and I do t fly under red/magenta.
Wind direction and storm movement?
Published missed approach clear or not?
Alternate escape route that allows to stay in VMC conditions?
I’ve done visual approaches with an alternate missed approach coordinated with ATC prior to commencement.

ACMS 17th July 2019 13:24

Fly under the base of a red cell????

NO.

safetypee 17th July 2019 13:28

If you have doubts about an approach don’t do it; wait hold.
You cannot guarantee that the radar or even visual will detect a down-draft or outflow windshear.
If a Cb has been over the runway, allow 15 min for the runway to drain, otherwise use flooded runway landing performance.
https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia.../SAFO19003.pdf

Heed the advice of those who survived.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/12k90qtpqf...shear.pdf?dl=0


Dont Hang Up 17th July 2019 13:43


Originally Posted by ACMS (Post 10520836)
Fly under the base of a red cell????

NO.

Isn't the argument that, once below cloud base, it is easier to see and avoid? Not that it is somehow safer to fly under rather than through.

gearlever 17th July 2019 13:46


Originally Posted by B2N2 (Post 10520677)
Angle the radar up 10 degrees and I do t fly under red/magenta.
Wind direction and storm movement?
Published missed approach clear or not?
Alternate escape route that allows to stay in VMC conditions?
I’ve done visual approaches with an alternate missed approach coordinated with ATC prior to commencement.

"I’ve done visual approaches with an alternate missed approach coordinated with ATC prior to commencement.".

Yep. I have done this many times at busy airports. 99% success while others diverted. Just coordinate with ATC. If you say "due to weather" local noise abatement procedures are voided.

safetypee 17th July 2019 14:41

B2N2, gearlever,
Because you have done something before without event, does not change the inherent risk in the operation, thus never assuring success in the future.
The pre approach assessment is that of the risk in the plan depending on what is seen (or not seen) and judged as a justifiable course of action - what if this doesn’t work out.
It’s a judgement - yours and should not assume too much about anyone else’s involvement including the operational pressures such as a busy airport.

vilas 17th July 2019 16:55

There is no flat yes or no. D191 L1011 at DFW on approach when passing through a single CB encountered a severe microburst and fatally crashed. That accident led to development of predictive winds sheer.​​​​​ All CBs are not same. If the CB is well developed with top closer to 30000 then it's dangerous and best avoided.

jimjim1 18th July 2019 02:51

Accident: Miami B738 at Jacksonville on May 3rd 2019, runway overrun on landing, aircraft ends up in river


http://avherald.com/img/miami_b738_n...e_190503_4.jpg

Check Airman 18th July 2019 05:15

In Florida, we get thunderstorms all summer long. The ATC here are top notch, and can seemingly thread a needle through the storm cells, and find a generally smooth ride.

My airline has provided us pretty good guidance on operating when there are storms by the field. One thing we like to do is carry a comfortable amount of fuel for the inevitable hold. (8-11,000lb of planned arrival fuel is not uncommon for an afternoon arrival in an A319/320/321). That being said, if there's a large cell on final, we'd rather land with a tailwind, with alternate missed approach instructions, than fly under the red.

TOGA Tap 18th July 2019 05:33

Do not take-off or land when thunderstorm is above the airport. Basic rule.

FullWings 18th July 2019 05:55

I think there are many categories of storm, each with their own characteristics and risks. What level of maturity the cell(s) have, the environmental lapse rate, humidity, depth, etc. The effects range from benign to lethal.

If you can actually see what’s going on and combine that with the radar picture, it is possible to manage the risk but it takes a lot of experience, knowledge and readiness to throw it away if you don’t like it. As per the previous poster, a storm over/proximate to the airfield is generally worth holding off for. On my type a lightning strike needs ~6 engineer hours of checking before it returns to service, so waiting 20mins for the storm to dissipate is cheap insurance...

safetypee 18th July 2019 08:45


During the approach the crew lost situational awareness, with their attention channelised, and the aircraft entered the storm cell with heavy rain after passing the MAP. The PIC did not arrest the excessive rate of descent, and flew the aircraft increasingly below the Glideslope.”
From http://www.aic.gov.pg/pdf/FinRpts/20...l%20Report.pdf
https://www.pprune.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=276

B2N2 18th July 2019 12:01


Originally Posted by safetypee (Post 10520902)
B2N2, gearlever,
Because you have done something before without event, does not change the inherent risk in the operation, thus never assuring success in the future.
The pre approach assessment is that of the risk in the plan depending on what is seen (or not seen) and judged as a justifiable course of action - what if this doesn’t work out.
It’s a judgement - yours and should not assume too much about anyone else’s involvement including the operational pressures such as a busy airport.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.
If you approach it as something “you’ve done it many times before” then that attitude is wrong.
If you approach it as a challenge unique to that set of circumstances then you’re simply being a professional.
By doing this you develop a skill set.

safetypee 19th July 2019 08:06

B2N2,
Your appropriate professional view is only one of a range of outcomes dependent on how experiences in challenging situations are used. Risks assessed and adequately mitigated, the exposure reviewed and memorised, can contribute to professional expertise - professionalism.

Alternatives include inadequate risk assessment and mitigation, but with an acceptable outcome the exposure could be stored as a valuable lesson learnt (don’t do that again), or as an overconfident self-assessment of future ability. The latter is a powerful human bias - egocentric bias, also confirmation bias, choice supportive bias.

In an anonymous forum we cannot determine which of the outcomes is being related without further explanation, thus the reader could be adversely influenced if less adequate posts are taken at face value.
Question #1 represents an alternative approach, requesting information and explanation.
Statements of ‘I have done that before’ do not relate the actual situation to the experience gained, or the personal attitude of the poster - training capt or troll.
Biased memories can be hazardous because an unwary newbie could be adversely influenced.

Many posts in forums are opinion - ‘opinion is the lowest form of human knowledge’ Bill Bullard
In addition “I’m entitled to my opinion” is used to shelter beliefs that should have been abandoned. It becomes shorthand for “I can say or think whatever I like”.You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to what you can argue for.https://theconversation.com/no-youre...r-opinion-9978

My humble, argued, opinion.

B2N2 19th July 2019 09:04

So what’s your point?
Question was posted and I gave an answer and without any knowledge of my background and experience you’re calling that unsafe.

Yaw String 21st July 2019 13:48

Our lot stipulate not to continue an approach if visibility reduces to 2000M or less in rain,when associated with presence of CB.
Slightly off the original post subject,but idea is to avoid likelihood of flooded runway associated with tropical downpour,and therefore,possibility of aquaplaning..

gearlever 21st July 2019 14:41


Originally Posted by Yaw String (Post 10524250)
Our lot stipulate not to continue an approach if visibility reduces to 2000M or less in rain,when associated with presence of CB.
Slightly off the original post subject,but idea is to avoid likelihood of flooded runway associated with tropical downpour,and therefore,possibility of aquaplaning..

Must be an operator with an amazing safety record:\

Smythe 21st July 2019 20:58


In Florida, we get thunderstorms all summer long. The ATC here are top notch, and can seemingly thread a needle through the storm cells, and find a generally smooth ride.
Concur...I was driving with the Panasonic/Avtech system onboard as well, which provides FMS winds thorough the IFE system ...

sharing winds through the network....golden.


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