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Landing the 737 fully crabbed

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Landing the 737 fully crabbed

Old 20th Jun 2019, 08:19
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Landing the 737 fully crabbed

I just transitioned from a larger jet to the 737 and one of the things I noticed is that it is not recommended to perform sideslip only (zero crab) landings in strong crosswinds. According to the FCTM however, the airplane can land using crab only (zero sideslip) up to maximum crosswind.

Being used to landing sideslip only (full decrab during the flare) I'm not sure how to tackle this. Some recommend a partial decrab, but this feels very unnatural to me. A fully crabbed landing on the other hand does not sound very comfortable to me.

So are there any 737 drivers who land it fully crabbed in strong crosswinds? How does that work out? Very curious!
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 17:02
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I didn't realize it was possible to transition from one type to another without undergoing simulator (or real thing) training.

Cheers,
Grog
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 17:10
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Originally Posted by Mobilae View Post
I just transitioned from a larger jet to the 737 and one of the things I noticed is that it is not recommended to perform sideslip only (zero crab) landings in strong crosswinds. According to the FCTM however, the airplane can land using crab only (zero sideslip) up to maximum crosswind.

Being used to landing sideslip only (full decrab during the flare) I'm not sure how to tackle this. Some recommend a partial decrab, but this feels very unnatural to me. A fully crabbed landing on the other hand does not sound very comfortable to me.

So are there any 737 drivers who land it fully crabbed in strong crosswinds? How does that work out? Very curious!
Prior to the advent of downward pointing winglets, the standard landing technique taught at my airline was to either 1) start using slideslip around 100-150 feet to give autothrottles time to react, or 2) decrab in the flare. With the new winglets causing clearance issues, we are no longer advised to use method 1 in anything other that light crosswinds. If decrabbing in the flare, it doesn't hurt to carry a few extra knots due to the sudden increase in drag.

Boeing says you can land the 737 in a full crab, but it is not recommended for dry runways due to stress on the gear and tires. When braking actions are less than good, then landing with some crab is less of a problem.
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 17:24
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Originally Posted by capngrog View Post
I didn't realize it was possible to transition from one type to another without undergoing simulator (or real thing) training.

Cheers,
Grog
Sim training only. And yes, of course it included crosswind landings up to maximum. Iíve tried several different methods but I obviously can not comment on how this translates to the actual aircraft. Landing gear/tire stress mentioned by yoko1 above is obviously also not much of a concern in the sim. Iíve tried landing fully crabbed in the actual plane with crosswinds up to 20kts which worked out okay comfort-wise (although it did not feel natural to me). But 30+ crosswinds is perhaps a different story.
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 20:03
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Decrab during flare, between 10' and 20' RA, the aircraft can happily take a crab angle of 5 degrees or less in any condition and it is certified to land in a crab according to the guidelines provided in the FCTM. Might not be pretty, but it can be done and it's ok on wet or slippery runways.
The 737 is the only jet I have experience on, but what I can say is that the rudder is incredibly powerful so all it takes is a very smooth application of rudder. And just when you think the amount of rudder you are applying is not enough, it's actually enough!

These are my 2 cents. New on type and still with too little exposure to crosswinds.
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 21:23
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Doesn't the 737 main gear have a limited amount of castoring ability?
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 21:27
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True.FCTM says such things. Would be the first aircraft in my life that ACTUALLY asks me to do that but I prefer to full decrab it as in most other types(and I have landed easy up to the max demonstrated wind conditions)In some companies you "have to play the game" in the sim and land it as they say. But why not decrab it if there is really no penalty on handling(more an improvement I would say by "decrabbing" it). What the FCTM suggests is one thing that you do not want in an already stressing situation - feeling VERY uncomfortable.

Once properly learned(as most of us know), decrabbing an aircraft is an easy thing.

My advice: Play the "game" as long as you are under training(depending on the linetrainer really, most use common sense and decrab it OF COURSE). Later, if you sit on the left seat there is no issue how you do it as long as it is safe. If you are sitting right discuss the plan during briefing with the skipper - most will be happy.
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 23:22
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Side slip only and decrab in the flare are two totally different techniques.

To the original poster, just land the B737 in a crosswind the same way you landed your previous type. There is ZERO voodoo to B737 crosswind landings....
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 04:55
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FWIW on the -300, I used just to align with the runway at a suitable height, depending on crosswind (perhaps 200-300ft approaching maximum), sideslip as required to maintain track, pitch up a degree or two to account for the slip, and the old girl would paint herself on every time ....
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 06:08
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Some simulators are known to lack fidelity in strong crosswinds. One that I have used is more or less unflyable above 25 kts across. Years ago one would have written that up and it would have been fixed but standards aren’t what they used to be.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 11:52
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Originally Posted by Switchbait View Post
To the original poster, just land the B737 in a crosswind the same way you landed your previous type. There is ZERO voodoo to B737 crosswind landings....
NOT good advice to the OP for 737 operation, after they claimed to:
Being used to landing sideslip only
which by definition means 'wing down'. It is especially poor advice as it goes against the recommendation that the OP kindly referenced. The recommendation is there for very good reasons - engine strike being the most obvious.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 11:57
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Originally Posted by pilotmike View Post
NOT good advice to the OP for 737 operation, after they claimed to: which by definition means 'wing down'. It is especially poor advice as it goes against the recommendation that the OP kindly referenced. The recommendation is there for very good reasons - engine strike being the most obvious.
Correct. A pod strike would be my main concern. I assume the recommendation is there for that reason.

I've always been very comfortable with heavy crosswind landings, but not being able to fully decrab is a strange thing to me. Guess I'm going to have to make it work using a partial decrab technique.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 12:47
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(full decrab during the flare) is what the original poster wrote......

so is he using side slip only, or de crab?? They are two entirely different techniques.

In my reply i assume he was ďfull decrab during the flareĒ..... thatís why I said just keep doing what you are doing.

Some folks here here are confusing the terms and techniques....
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 12:50
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Also, if you flare the airplane at all, you need close to 15 AOB for a pod strike..... Who lands at 15 degrees angle of bank???

Have another read of the Boeing manuals.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 12:50
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[COLOR=left=#000000]
So are there any 737 drivers who land it fully crabbed in strong crosswinds?
Have seen this in the simulator countless times. Usual reason is "because the book says I can." The real reason is these pilots lack the flying ability to touchdown with no drift.

Crosswind landing practice is given low priority during recurrent or type rating simulator training so by the time the pilots get on line they are very apprehensive of crosswinds. They fall into the trap of just planting the aircraft with significant difference between runway heading and actual aircraft heading with a near enough is good enough head in the sand attitude.

There is considerable skill and good timing required to touch down with all drift removed. Some pilots have this natural good judgement while others haven't. The place to hone that skill is in the simulator. Ideally that simulator has proper fidelity. Repeated approaches from 300 feet in strong crosswinds is all that most pilots need to gain proficiency. After all, isn't that why we have simulators?

This scribe has yet to operate a Level D full flight simulator that does not closely replicate the real thing in crosswind take off and landings - otherwise it should not be certified. Where is the training priority in a simulator? A manually flown consistently accurate touch down with drift removed a fraction before touchdown - or - a fully automatic flown ILS with both pilots hands on knees monitoring. I know which one I would admire as a demonstration of pure flying skill.. [/COLOR]
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 14:16
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So are there any 737 drivers who land it fully crabbed in strong crosswinds?
According to slide 14 of Capt John Cashman's (Boeing's Chief Test Pilot) presentation "Crosswind Guidelines"
http://www.smartcockpit.com/docs/Cro...Guidelines.pdf
"* Full crab not recommended for maximum crosswind on Long Beach products"
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 15:25
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Yeah, that refers to the DCs and MDs...
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 18:27
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My advice is to ask your new employer what Compamy Policy is on this subject and then stick to it!

All of my employers have said the same thing - remove the drift in the flare by squeezing (NOT kicking) the rudder and apply a little opposite aileron to stop the wing rising.

And, on a jet, never ever use the rudder to pick up a dropped wing - it may be alright on a Cessna 150 but not on a jet. And if you want to know why then ask a training captain at your new employer.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 23:13
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Originally Posted by Switchbait View Post
Side slip only and decrab in the flare are two totally different techniques.

To the original poster, just land the B737 in a crosswind the same way you landed your previous type. There is ZERO voodoo to B737 crosswind landings....
You do not say. Was thinking it is all the same ^^.

Hell. You DO NOT know some (irish) operators back here in Europe. They make Voodoo out of their entire 737 OPS(by issuing a ton of FCI's and lot of other crab). All magic(for them) . But I agree - from a (experienced, need to add that nowadays)pilots point of view is is a rather common airliner. Dated(even the NG and MAX), but an rather easy rig. No big deal to handle it during X-winds.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 23:25
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Originally Posted by Switchbait View Post
Also, if you flare the airplane at all, you need close to 15 AOB for a pod strike..... Who lands at 15 degrees angle of bank???

Have another read of the Boeing manuals.

YEP. Some need to do that. Just land the bloody thing as any other airliner. To clarify - that means you are looking with your nose pointing AT the centerliner. Not really something so strange(I hope). Other aircraft, take the CRJ for instance, would have issues with a wing TIP strike, still, you use the same normal technique. Or a Global Express which is even more vulnerable to that(due to the even more swept wings). HOW many tip(trailing edge) strike they have?
Again -on the SIM use whatever your TRE wants you to pass the gig. Most of the time TRE's have a loughable ammount of command experience on type(and in general, other discussion), so DO NOT argue with them, play the game. In the real world, without an TRE grading you on some questionable company procedures do what is safest for you, the passengers, the plane, your license(last but not least).

I have seen some FO's pulling that crap by not fully decrabbing(^^) and I have seen VERY scary landings. Thanks god the folks in the back had no idea, but I was(and sometimes did) ready to interfere that questionable procedure.
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