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Circling minima TERPS/EASA

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Circling minima TERPS/EASA

Old 31st May 2018, 07:56
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Circling minima TERPS/EASA

CIRC minima are published according to approach categories (A/B/C/D...) that relate to Vref.
Any aircraft is categorized as e.g. cat C. If you exceed the max speed for cat C on your actual approach (e.g. due to abnormal procedures) you have to use the higher cat D minimum in the FAAs world. Does that requirement (use the higher minimum) hold true in the EASA world?
I know EASA and FAA/TERPS CIRC minima are not based on the same obstacle free radii - hence my question.
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Old 31st May 2018, 14:05
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Originally Posted by JPAirbus
CIRC minima are published according to approach categories (A/B/C/D...) that relate to Vref.
Any aircraft is categorized as e.g. cat C. If you exceed the max speed for cat C on your actual approach (e.g. due to abnormal procedures) you have to use the higher cat D minimum in the FAAs world. Does that requirement (use the higher minimum) hold true in the EASA world?
I know EASA and FAA/TERPS CIRC minima are not based on the same obstacle free radii - hence my question.
EASA doesn't have instrument flight procedure (IFP) criteria. Member states use ICAO's PANS-OPs, as does most of the world. The FAA uses TERPs. TERPs circle to land criteria are in transition. If an FAA procedure as a "C" icon associated with CTL MDAs, it is new TERPs CTL criteria, which is quite similar to PANS-OPS, especially for Approach Categories C and D. If a TERPs procedure doesn't have the "C" icon, then the C and D areas are much smaller than in PANS-OPS. Also, the maximum speeds in PANS-OPS are higher than in TERPs.
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Old 31st May 2018, 19:26
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I always wondered that. If I'm flying a CAT C aircraft but you fly the approach at a speed that puts you in the CAT D category which minima do you use at airports with differing minima. What about a CAT D aircraft that is light?
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Old 31st May 2018, 22:03
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Originally Posted by Airmann
I always wondered that. If I'm flying a CAT C aircraft but you fly the approach at a speed that puts you in the CAT D category which minima do you use at airports with differing minima. What about a CAT D aircraft that is light?
You go into the higher category if your speed exceeds your certified category. But, you can't go the other way.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 00:08
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certainly would go into higher cat if non standard config.

all got very confusing with TERPS with respect to circling radii and the new limits vs old... very easy to get caught out.

allegedly, 9 times more risky than a precision approach. not sure how true but was quoted at a sim check recently.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 00:23
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Have done countless flaps/slats jammed scenarios in the sim, and not once has anyone suggested using a higher minima. For that matter landing with flaps/slats jammed at close to fully retracted may well put the aircraft above max speed for CAT D even. But our company charts only have C or D on them because that's all we have in the fleet. I Don't know if a CAT E or more even exists?
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 00:34
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Originally Posted by Airmann
Have done countless flaps/slats jammed scenarios in the sim, and not once has anyone suggested using a higher minima. For that matter landing with flaps/slats jammed at close to fully retracted may well put the aircraft above max speed for CAT D even. But our company charts only have C or D on them because that's all we have in the fleet. I Don't know if a CAT E or more even exists?
That's an emergency, so you do what you have to do. In the U.S. the FAA publishes CAT E minimums at some airports. But, Jepp doesn't chart them.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 00:35
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Originally Posted by VinRouge
allegedly, 9 times more risky than a precision approach. not sure how true but was quoted at a sim check recently.
Don't know that statistic, but it makes sense to me.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 02:39
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I thought that every Airline basically banned circling these days
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 05:22
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If you have a failure that increases your approach speed and you are thinking whether you should increase your circling minima due to higher approach speed, you are asking yourself the wrong question.

The real question should be: is circling with some (I'm guessing) flight controls problem really the best option that I have available? Most of the time, the answer will be no.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 07:33
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Originally Posted by FlyingStone
If you have a failure that increases your approach speed and you are thinking whether you should increase your circling minima due to higher approach speed, you are asking yourself the wrong question.

The real question should be: is circling with some (I'm guessing) flight controls problem really the best option that I have available? Most of the time, the answer will be no.
I raise this issue with our SIM department every time. Unfortunately, I don't get to write the profile, but agree it's encouraging negative training. I guess their way to assess how you approach the situation.

We have Cat E published and if I'm ever above 163 Kt in final approach config, that's what I use.

Also worth noting the other speed limits for the various segments of the approach apply too as part of terps procedure design, it's not just about finals.

The limits are there. It's published you can move up the category but not down. Will try to find the official reference (may be terps/pans ops specific though )
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 07:40
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Originally Posted by Airmann
Have done countless flaps/slats jammed scenarios in the sim, and not once has anyone suggested using a higher minima. For that matter landing with flaps/slats jammed at close to fully retracted may well put the aircraft above max speed for CAT D even. But our company charts only have C or D on them because that's all we have in the fleet. I Don't know if a CAT E or more even exists?
Airman,
There are no Cat E civil aircraft, and I have never seen a published E minima.
Interestingly, the EGLL control zone size was established all those years ago in the anticipation of civil Cat E being developed, to cover a Cat E circling. It is about time it was re-sized to reflect the real wold of the last 40+ or more years.
Amazingly, the initial zone proposed for the new Sydney (AU) West airport is more or less the same size, ie: to cover a maneuver that will never be flown by an aircraft that does not and will not ever exist .
But one can never be "too safe", can one, no matter what destruction of existing GA traffic and existing airfields results.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 09:16
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Its the need/want to go outside the protected area for the various cats.

CAT C is radius 2.7
CAT D is 3.6
CAT E is 4.5

With a MDA below 1000ft.

I have been challenged about staying in the 2.7 which makes getting the stabilisation gate shall we say interesting. Some SOP's have a partial stabilisation gate at 1000 for circling and 500ft for complete. Others they don't even mention it.
in theory the vis minima is 2NM for CAT C and 2.5 NM for cat D I have never tried a sim approach in viz that low but I really can't see me being able to keep the runway in sight and be stable. And 500ft would be challenging wings level etc etc. And that's with no specials

Flap 0 and Vref of 170knts and bank of 30 degrees your not going to make the turn to finals with 3.7km viz and field in sight. 6.5KM viz of cat E you might have a chance. Stabilised borderline. Terps cat E is 3.2 km viz.

Most CAT C circling approaches I have seen and been tested on never seem to stay inside the protected area if you do them the way the TRE wants them, in fact most are bordering outside the CAT E protected area.

These are just thoughts on what I have seen on circling approaches over the years. I could get the plane in but it would be using "cowboy" skills which thankfully are extremely not current these days, and the safety officer would quite rightly be sending me to the CP for a right roasting. Those cowboy skills are not trained for in modern CAT operations it would be a 10 deg AoB constant aspect, roll the wings level at 200ft and land.

A circling approach at min viz and minimas for me is a last ditch get it on the ground in real life, no more escape options left. In the sim its good for training and making you think in contrived situations.

Real life I have had to operate into single ended IFR approach runways and done Circling approaches for real in a CAT B machine but without modern stabilised approach SOP's I would say all of them would have been categorised as unstable, runway centre line and bank angle over 5 deg not obtained by 500ft. . My current C machine I wouldn't even attempt it unless we were going to crash otherwise.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 14:09
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Originally Posted by Pugilistic Animus
I thought that every Airline basically banned circling these days
Can only speak to the U.S. A Part 121 operator has the option to use circle-to-land minimums (CTL). But, they have to have a CTL training program, both in ground school and the simulator. Most operators opt out.

If they opt out they can still CTL with reported ceiling and visibility of not less than 1,000 and 3.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 14:17
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Originally Posted by LeadSled
There are no Cat E civil aircraft, and I have never seen a published E minima.
The FAA publishes CAT E where the military has a requirement. Jeppesen does not include them on their charts.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 14:58
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CAT C is radius 2.7
CAT D is 3.6
CAT E is 4.5

With a MDA below 1000ft.
Worth pointing out that those limits only apply to old style TERPS plates. the newer ones (inverse bold C) have differing circling radii, as do pans ops plates. I think it varies with MDA/H too. Which is why i really don't like flying them operationally. Why procedures designers didn't stick with a standardized radius across al types of plate I won't know; at the bare minimum (no pun intended) Circling minima should include the circling radius you can go out to.

We use CAT E, however, has to be a heavyweight clean wing approach (no slat or flap) to require this.

I also have operationally used CAT E minima to prevent the cowboy style approach talked about above; by reverting to cat E minima, you have far more space to manoevre (as long as you have the visibility and cloudbase to do this of course)
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 15:02
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I thought that every Airline basically banned circling these days
That is a too wide a generalisation. Funny how circling approaches for many decades were considered normal and perfectly safe if flown by competent pilots. . Yet nowadays that GPS approaches are all the rage, circling approaches suddenly become (shudder) dangerous.

Depending of course on the destination terrain characteristics, circling approaches are not in themselves categorised as dangerous (providing any published No Circling area is respected). It is the questionable competency of the pilots flying them that gives people the yips; particularly those that are totally dependent on the automatic pilot as a crutch to lean on.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 15:26
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Originally Posted by VinRouge
Worth pointing out that those limits only apply to old style TERPS plates. the newer ones (inverse bold C) have differing circling radii, as do pans ops plates. I think it varies with MDA/H too. Which is why i really don't like flying them operationally. Why procedures designers didn't stick with a standardized radius across al types of plate I won't know; at the bare minimum (no pun intended) Circling minima should include the circling radius you can go out to.
Old and new TERPS CTL:
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 17:46
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Just to double check, have I got the current panops radius correct for MDA below 1000ft?

If not what are they?

I remember those because they all add up to 9 and go up by 1 for each cat increase making them easy to remember.

Last edited by tescoapp; 1st Jun 2018 at 19:35.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 21:40
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Thank you Aterpster and Sheppy for the additional information
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