When are you allowed to put your hand back on thrust levers after V1?
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 543
Likes: 338
From: Blue sky
It's funny to see how a thread starts from a question "when to put the hands back on the TL" ends up in a discussion on when to remove the hands from the TL and from some the idea the hands should just stay off the TL.
I'll just give you my 5cts (B737) which is pretty much common idea in my company.
* TO: on the thrust levers from CLB thrust to AP ON (ATC requests immediate level off, in manual flight A/T should be disconnected and thrust reduced instantly as well)
* APP and landing: below 10000ft anytime for AT problem (1 retarding, the other not) as ground is becoming critical and identification is confusing with hands not on the throttles (it's the opposite from an engine failure, but training bias creates the idea that an engine failure is happening)
I'll just give you my 5cts (B737) which is pretty much common idea in my company.
* TO: on the thrust levers from CLB thrust to AP ON (ATC requests immediate level off, in manual flight A/T should be disconnected and thrust reduced instantly as well)
* APP and landing: below 10000ft anytime for AT problem (1 retarding, the other not) as ground is becoming critical and identification is confusing with hands not on the throttles (it's the opposite from an engine failure, but training bias creates the idea that an engine failure is happening)
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,115
Likes: 86
From: England
T D
A pedantic point; FADEC computes what the engines are going to do in response to the Flight Guidance / Thrust Management computation.
In this sense moving - following up - thrust levers are a comfort blanket.
The all important need is for situation awareness - understanding; this requires human integration of present and future flight path, including thrust required, which requires a comprehensive instrument scan.
Situational awareness is the ability to know what is happening around you and to anticipate what might happen next. It’s the mental discipline that keeps you alert, prepared, and ready to act without hesitation
.… means knowing what “normal” looks like so you can identify deviations.
… a tactical skill that is not just about knowing what is going on. It’s about staying engaged and thinking critically to respond effectively to both routine and unexpected events.
https://safetyrisk.net/situational-awareness/
As for manual flight - 'when are you allowed to …'
When ever the pilot chooses to do so. The pilot is in command and should act as situations require; you cannot fly by referring to a book.
A pedantic point; FADEC computes what the engines are going to do in response to the Flight Guidance / Thrust Management computation.
In this sense moving - following up - thrust levers are a comfort blanket.
The all important need is for situation awareness - understanding; this requires human integration of present and future flight path, including thrust required, which requires a comprehensive instrument scan.
Situational awareness is the ability to know what is happening around you and to anticipate what might happen next. It’s the mental discipline that keeps you alert, prepared, and ready to act without hesitation
.… means knowing what “normal” looks like so you can identify deviations.
… a tactical skill that is not just about knowing what is going on. It’s about staying engaged and thinking critically to respond effectively to both routine and unexpected events.
https://safetyrisk.net/situational-awareness/
As for manual flight - 'when are you allowed to …'
When ever the pilot chooses to do so. The pilot is in command and should act as situations require; you cannot fly by referring to a book.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 180
From: USA
Or what the company manual tells you. My last three companies all had " guarding of flight controls below 2500' " in the manual. SOP was remove hand from throttle/power lever at V1, put hand back after gear up, keep hand till at least 2500'. Not saying it is the only way, or the best way, but it is the way everyone in the company did it, and that is a good thing. We actually do fly by referring to a book every day.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,349
Likes: 843
From: Tring, UK
I can understand getting your hands back on the TLs on the approach as hopefully you’re going to have them there for the landing but in the climb out they will be at a fixed setting and in most Boeings will have gone into HOLD for a bit, so why bother? At best nothing happens and there is the distinct possibility of unconsciously moving them to a power setting you didn’t want, especially in turbulence.
I may be turning into a curmudgeon but I am somewhat triggered by people who hang onto the controls and thrust levers well away from the ground when both the autopilot and autothrottle are engaged. If you don’t like what the automatics are doing, disengage them and fly manually - don’t apply pressure trying to force the automation into doing what you want as this doesn’t work!
I may be turning into a curmudgeon but I am somewhat triggered by people who hang onto the controls and thrust levers well away from the ground when both the autopilot and autothrottle are engaged. If you don’t like what the automatics are doing, disengage them and fly manually - don’t apply pressure trying to force the automation into doing what you want as this doesn’t work!
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,296
Likes: 305
From: All at sea
Best post here! Maybe not applicable to Airbus (dunno, not having flown Airbus) but CDF for almost every older type since the DC3 - where that was SOP - whether or not blessed with auto throttle.
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,166
Likes: 86
From: Planet Earth
I can understand getting your hands back on the TLs on the approach as hopefully you’re going to have them there for the landing but in the climb out they will be at a fixed setting and in most Boeings will have gone into HOLD for a bit, so why bother? At best nothing happens and there is the distinct possibility of unconsciously moving them to a power setting you didn’t want, especially in turbulence.
I may be turning into a curmudgeon but I am somewhat triggered by people who hang onto the controls and thrust levers well away from the ground when both the autopilot and autothrottle are engaged. If you don’t like what the automatics are doing, disengage them and fly manually - don’t apply pressure trying to force the automation into doing what you want as this doesn’t work!
I may be turning into a curmudgeon but I am somewhat triggered by people who hang onto the controls and thrust levers well away from the ground when both the autopilot and autothrottle are engaged. If you don’t like what the automatics are doing, disengage them and fly manually - don’t apply pressure trying to force the automation into doing what you want as this doesn’t work!
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 184
Likes: 56
From: Dubai, once... now London
I can understand getting your hands back on the TLs on the approach as hopefully you’re going to have them there for the landing but in the climb out they will be at a fixed setting and in most Boeings will have gone into HOLD for a bit, so why bother? At best nothing happens and there is the distinct possibility of unconsciously moving them to a power setting you didn’t want, especially in turbulence.
I may be turning into a curmudgeon but I am somewhat triggered by people who hang onto the controls and thrust levers well away from the ground when both the autopilot and autothrottle are engaged. If you don’t like what the automatics are doing, disengage them and fly manually - don’t apply pressure trying to force the automation into doing what you want as this doesn’t work!
I may be turning into a curmudgeon but I am somewhat triggered by people who hang onto the controls and thrust levers well away from the ground when both the autopilot and autothrottle are engaged. If you don’t like what the automatics are doing, disengage them and fly manually - don’t apply pressure trying to force the automation into doing what you want as this doesn’t work!
I seem to recall a training note from Airbus from like 25+ years ago saying pretty much the same thing.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,100
Likes: 111
From: Somewhere over the rainbow
Spot ON FullWings. On Airbus if the AP trips off for any reasons the aircraft is flight path stable. You don’t have to maintain your hand on the sidestick unless you are close to the ground; you are just gonna make things much worst. Airbus actually released an FOT to recommend in case the AP trips off due to wake turbulence to release the control and wait for a reasonable stabilisation of the aircraft before taking any actions. They have been cases where pilots over reacted when AP tripped off and consequently resulted in serious loss of altitude and pax and cabin crews getting hurt.
