Type of malfunction?
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Type of malfunction?
Hi just checked this video out on youtube?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7O7R_Vk7Ko
Is it not Engine severe damage with memory items? The N2 is showing 0? Would you not secure/shut the engine down?
Thank you
Pin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7O7R_Vk7Ko
Is it not Engine severe damage with memory items? The N2 is showing 0? Would you not secure/shut the engine down?
Thank you
Pin
Might depend on company SOP, I know ours on this sort of thing have morphed over the years and it's sure as as heck come up in some sim debriefs.
According to the 777 QRH "Eng Svr Damage/Sep L,R" the conditions are:
>>Airframe vibrations with abnormal indications,
>> Engine Separation.
(my emphasis).
In the video there is indeed 0% N2 but the captain mentions there was no vibration...so there's perhaps some logic some grounds for handling it as a run down and actioning the []ENG FAIL R (checklist).
OTOH I know some operators teach or have taught actioning the severe damage check list for any engine failure with extremely abnormal indication, such as a "frozen" spool, vibration or not, on the grounds that for that to happen something pretty severe must have taken place in the engine. In the real world would you ever have a locked/frozen spool and not get vibration?
Oh and above all I know "our lot" very much caution against taking the []ENG FAIL L/R message on the 777 at face value, you need to check the indications ( as they did in the video) - but apologies if you already know that.
Hope that's cleared it up
According to the 777 QRH "Eng Svr Damage/Sep L,R" the conditions are:
>>Airframe vibrations with abnormal indications,
>> Engine Separation.
(my emphasis).
In the video there is indeed 0% N2 but the captain mentions there was no vibration...so there's perhaps some logic some grounds for handling it as a run down and actioning the []ENG FAIL R (checklist).
OTOH I know some operators teach or have taught actioning the severe damage check list for any engine failure with extremely abnormal indication, such as a "frozen" spool, vibration or not, on the grounds that for that to happen something pretty severe must have taken place in the engine. In the real world would you ever have a locked/frozen spool and not get vibration?
Oh and above all I know "our lot" very much caution against taking the []ENG FAIL L/R message on the 777 at face value, you need to check the indications ( as they did in the video) - but apologies if you already know that.
Hope that's cleared it up
Last edited by wiggy; 24th May 2016 at 07:58.
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Points to consider:
1. Would you feel airframe vibration with idle thrust & stationary on the ground? Doubt it.
2. Is N1/N2 = 0% an abnormal indication? Yes.
3. Actioning SEV DAM allows immediate shutdown from memory and prevent further damage. Not a bad idea.
4. On there ground, going no where quickly, is there any reason NOT to action memory items if in doubt? No.
5. Why keep a sick engine running when it is not needed?
1. Would you feel airframe vibration with idle thrust & stationary on the ground? Doubt it.
2. Is N1/N2 = 0% an abnormal indication? Yes.
3. Actioning SEV DAM allows immediate shutdown from memory and prevent further damage. Not a bad idea.
4. On there ground, going no where quickly, is there any reason NOT to action memory items if in doubt? No.
5. Why keep a sick engine running when it is not needed?
I wouldn't disagree with any of the above - I think it 's something a trainer might bring up under "discussion items".
Regardless of the checklists and as an aside is it worth highlighting that the clip seems to me to be a generic training video produced by a flight training organisation? I say that because there are certainly minor differences between what that crew said and did in that 777 simulator and what other crews would do working to their approved 777 SOPS'... so with that in mind I certainly wouldn't say the crew in the video were wrong in what they did.
Regardless of the checklists and as an aside is it worth highlighting that the clip seems to me to be a generic training video produced by a flight training organisation? I say that because there are certainly minor differences between what that crew said and did in that 777 simulator and what other crews would do working to their approved 777 SOPS'... so with that in mind I certainly wouldn't say the crew in the video were wrong in what they did.
Last edited by wiggy; 24th May 2016 at 13:36.
If the aircraft is on the ground and stationary there is no airflow going through the engine. So conceivably as the engine winds down (N1 in the video is already low prior to discussion of N2) the N2 value would fall away to zero due to resistance from the accessory gear box
Bit of a bang so maybe a stall/surge?
Bit of a bang so maybe a stall/surge?
TBH I don't think you can draw many if any conclusions - as the script below the video points out:
It might be my PC, it might be the editing...or it might be that the captain had an incredible degree of foresight and the reaction time of a god but having looked hard at this again some of the indications (or lack of) are bit interesting right from the instant the abandon is initiated..remind me again why stop was called....
This video was produced for the CRM/NTS training environment so, as such, doesn't necessarily demonstrate or reflect best operating or SOP compliant practices.
Last edited by wiggy; 24th May 2016 at 19:17.
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or it might be that the captain had an incredible degree of foresight and the reaction time of a god
"V1. Engine........Fire Continue."
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Problem with old school memory items is you can shut the wrong one. That is more disastrous than some more damage. It has happened. So no more memory business even in engine fire you go by ECAM step by step or a check list
So no more memory business even in engine fire you go by ECAM step by step or a check list
For example in the context of the video and the old school 777 checklists such as "Fire Engine ...", and "Engine severe damage/separation.." still have recall (i.e from memory) items. Once those are done and only when appropriate the ECL is then used to confirm said actions and continue the rest of the checklist.
FWIW "[] Eng Fail" doesn't have recall items.
Last edited by wiggy; 26th May 2016 at 11:05.
In my time with the Irish Loco, we had some issues on the line with engine failures. All that was trained in the sim was either a straight engine failure or a fire/severe damage leading you down one of two obvious pathways.
However, the line event most commonly encountered was a bird strike followed by a stall/surge and crews were applying either of the above checklists, and forgetting the existence of the memory items and checklist for a Surge/Limit/Stall because it was never trained.
This was partially a sim issue, as the engine surge malfunction in the sim was quite weak, predictable and easily controllable, rather than the banging, vibration and large yawing moments experienced in real world events.
However, the line event most commonly encountered was a bird strike followed by a stall/surge and crews were applying either of the above checklists, and forgetting the existence of the memory items and checklist for a Surge/Limit/Stall because it was never trained.
This was partially a sim issue, as the engine surge malfunction in the sim was quite weak, predictable and easily controllable, rather than the banging, vibration and large yawing moments experienced in real world events.
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Ah; the mis-use of the sim. Always an engine failure at V1 on the ground, never at V2 when airborne in bird strike territory. Always a return to departure airfield where the weather was OK 5 minutes ago: always a non-event SE ILS with a GA due no visual reference at DA???? always followed by a return for a 2nd attempt where the weather has miraculously improved to above minimum. Never a SE diversion to the takeoff alternate with a straight forward ILS in moderate conditions followed by a late GA due ATC. It ticks the boxes, is more educational and realistic, but takes time.
I was once, in another life, given an engine failure at GA from an NPA. The reason being that F40 = V2 F15 therefore the engine failure was conducted & demonstrated between V1 & V2; in this case V2 F15 which is a takeoff setting. Such a pleasure to have another educational challenge to tick a mandatory box.
Real life scenarios are not that often re-enacted in the sim. You are correct regarding engine stall training. If you need to run it at idle it confuses the heck out of crews as to which type of configuration do you use for approach. A monster f%ck up many times as the QRH expects you to think. OMG!
Classic real life scenario. Engine fail FL350. Crew goes to engine fail procedure with identifying the type of malfunction etc. and decides it's s simple failure. While doing this they get a stick shaker. Oops. Fly the a/c damn it. Priority. The sim had sucked them into this sequence of actions.
I was once, in another life, given an engine failure at GA from an NPA. The reason being that F40 = V2 F15 therefore the engine failure was conducted & demonstrated between V1 & V2; in this case V2 F15 which is a takeoff setting. Such a pleasure to have another educational challenge to tick a mandatory box.
Real life scenarios are not that often re-enacted in the sim. You are correct regarding engine stall training. If you need to run it at idle it confuses the heck out of crews as to which type of configuration do you use for approach. A monster f%ck up many times as the QRH expects you to think. OMG!
Classic real life scenario. Engine fail FL350. Crew goes to engine fail procedure with identifying the type of malfunction etc. and decides it's s simple failure. While doing this they get a stick shaker. Oops. Fly the a/c damn it. Priority. The sim had sucked them into this sequence of actions.
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There are two primary reasons for the for running the memory items. One is to shut the engine down if it is still running, in order to prevent further damage. The reason to prevent further damage is to avoid making the situation worse - eg. starting or making a fire worse as components fail. The second reason is to get the fuel, hydraulic & engine bleed valves closed, for basically the same reason.
If there is any doubt about the situation, it is generally better to be conservative & run the memory items for fire/severe damage/separation.
If there is any doubt about the situation, it is generally better to be conservative & run the memory items for fire/severe damage/separation.
The use of memory items should be minimised as the memory, particularly when under significant stress, is a very unreliable tool.
In my company there are various schools of thought however one fleet effectively got rid of every recall except those that required immediate action and this included engine fires etc. (to clarify engine fires are not a memory item)
This immediately reduced the number of errors in the sim and took a huge amount of pressure off the crews and in my mind improved safety immeasurably.
The old school thinking that an engine fire is a situation that requires immediate attention I think can easily be dispelled and when considered in the cold hard light of day with no emotion attached, it is clear that shutting down an engine at low level is a potentially dangerous event.
Given that in most situations an engine with a fire warning is still producing power, waiting a little bit until the aircraft is away from the ground at a safe height, in most cases cleaned up and operating safely, before actioning the items associated with the fire is a safe and prudent way to handle the event.
Some may disagree but I think the evidence from having seen these events handled in various ways makes it quite clear which is the better way to go.
In my company there are various schools of thought however one fleet effectively got rid of every recall except those that required immediate action and this included engine fires etc. (to clarify engine fires are not a memory item)
This immediately reduced the number of errors in the sim and took a huge amount of pressure off the crews and in my mind improved safety immeasurably.
The old school thinking that an engine fire is a situation that requires immediate attention I think can easily be dispelled and when considered in the cold hard light of day with no emotion attached, it is clear that shutting down an engine at low level is a potentially dangerous event.
Given that in most situations an engine with a fire warning is still producing power, waiting a little bit until the aircraft is away from the ground at a safe height, in most cases cleaned up and operating safely, before actioning the items associated with the fire is a safe and prudent way to handle the event.
Some may disagree but I think the evidence from having seen these events handled in various ways makes it quite clear which is the better way to go.
Last edited by Snakecharma; 27th May 2016 at 04:34.
