The Importance of a good Landing
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Of all the 737 simulators I flew, none of them were anyway like the real aircraft.
Have seen some dreadful boxes and some good. My initial 737 endorsement used -300/-400 sims at Qantas .. first flight in anger and I couldn't tell the difference .. other than it was much more fun and the visuals were just so much better.
Probably just a reflection on my abilities, I guess.
Surely, the need is for the sim only to be reasonably good so that the transition to the real thing is relatively painless. (Thinks back to the earlier 727 sims which were pretty dreadful).
Have seen some dreadful boxes and some good. My initial 737 endorsement used -300/-400 sims at Qantas .. first flight in anger and I couldn't tell the difference .. other than it was much more fun and the visuals were just so much better.
Probably just a reflection on my abilities, I guess.
Surely, the need is for the sim only to be reasonably good so that the transition to the real thing is relatively painless. (Thinks back to the earlier 727 sims which were pretty dreadful).
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SMOOTH LANDING TECHNIQUE
Many OPINIONS here.The fact is that a LANDING is not a simple manuouvre, it has so many factors affecting it.WIND, AIRPLANE WEIGHT, RUNWAY LENGTH, SURFACE CONDITIONS, VISIBILITY to name a few.One issue that I have have noticed in my 20000 hours is most pilots lack of the ACTUAL RUNWAY CONTOUR or CROSS-SECTION profile.To be truly in synch with your runway you should have this information as well.Phuket runway 27 is a classic example.You must " ADJUST" that last little bit of YOKE movement to allow for these things.Anyone who says landings are easy things are just talking rubbish.It takes years and tears to truly refine this extremely important piloting skill.
It would be very helpful if the RADALT kept calling out height every second and in steps of 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 feet so that one could very accurately assess the rate of closure of the tyres to the runway. Perhaps some do? The Airbus RADALTs I fly call at 10 feet and then one other height, say 7 or 4 then it shuts up. My eyes are outside the cockpit at that moment, but if the RADALT kept talking, I would know what our rate of closure was, or if I was doing a very low flypast!
A greaser in exchange for half the runway length is clearly wrong, but a bit of finesse producing a gentle landing is a good thing, and an experienced pilot should be able to do this when it is appropriate. The way some folk crash it on, without even de-crabbing sometimes makes me wince and feel for the aircraft structure.
My best ever landing was in a 146 (so I had a head start!) and it was one of those days when everything was perfect and all I heard were the wheels starting to go round. There was no vertical movement at all. I wrote it in my logbook then and there as being my best ever landing, because I knew I would never better it, although I have come close in an A330.
A greaser in exchange for half the runway length is clearly wrong, but a bit of finesse producing a gentle landing is a good thing, and an experienced pilot should be able to do this when it is appropriate. The way some folk crash it on, without even de-crabbing sometimes makes me wince and feel for the aircraft structure.
My best ever landing was in a 146 (so I had a head start!) and it was one of those days when everything was perfect and all I heard were the wheels starting to go round. There was no vertical movement at all. I wrote it in my logbook then and there as being my best ever landing, because I knew I would never better it, although I have come close in an A330.
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It would be very helpful if the RADALT kept calling out height every second and in steps of 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 feet so that one could very accurately assess the rate of closure of the tyres to the runway.
It's very good that you flew a B146; I assume that it did not have Rad Alt call outs. Thus you learnt to use Mk.1 eyeball as was the case before B757/767 and later types. That's the way it should always be as the system may be broken. I once flew B767 with the rad alt call outs u/s. I, as humble bag carrying F/O, forgot to make the callouts and the captain 'arrived'. My ears were ringing for a few moments as irritation vented. Personally, I believe it is another event where too much reliance has been put on yet another techno-toy.
It's very good that you flew a B146; I assume that it did not have Rad Alt call outs. Thus you learnt to use Mk.1 eyeball as was the case before B757/767 and later types. That's the way it should always be as the system may be broken. I once flew B767 with the rad alt call outs u/s. I, as humble bag carrying F/O, forgot to make the callouts and the captain 'arrived'. My ears were ringing for a few moments as irritation vented. Personally, I believe it is another event where too much reliance has been put on yet another techno-toy.
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The Chinese F/O's make those rad alt calls below 10' and as you say it is very helpful because it lets you know that you are still descending and not floating, it also gives you a higher degree of accuracy that allows you to land smoothly.
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cosmo kramer...
Where do you look on rotation when the RVR is 150m?
Where do you look on rotation when the RVR is 150m?
E.g. a CAT3 approach requires an autoland. That doesn't mean that we have to do autolands on every approach.
Likewise, for a low visibility takeoff a special rotation technique is required and, by the way, captains only takeoff.
For taking off in normal visibility conditions (aka not low visibility), which is what the first officer in question should have been trained for, a conventional rotation should be made = looking out the window!
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Time for the ultimate landing by the Legend himself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvT0-KfnZxU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvT0-KfnZxU
Funny about needing RAD ALT calls BELOW 10' 
When checking out in the C-5, the IP covered up the RAD ALT--"you need to be able to land without it".
I fly with a "child of the magenta line", basic skills are lacking. Simple 10 knot crosswind landing was all
. Couldn't keep the wings level without letting go off the throttles, so speed varied. Touched after a short float with crab still on, so a bit of a twist there.
When checking out in the C-5, the IP covered up the RAD ALT--"you need to be able to land without it".
I fly with a "child of the magenta line", basic skills are lacking. Simple 10 knot crosswind landing was all
. Couldn't keep the wings level without letting go off the throttles, so speed varied. Touched after a short float with crab still on, so a bit of a twist there.
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I tell you what. I make GREAT landings almost every time in the A330......
...with the first set of main gear. The next set is pretty much witchcraft, and usually of the evil variety.
...with the first set of main gear. The next set is pretty much witchcraft, and usually of the evil variety.
Cosmo Kramer: During the takeoff rotation phase once sight of the runway is obscured by the coming of the cockpit can you explain why it is better to stare at the blank sky and not bother to check the progression of the rotation attitude with a view to ensuring that a tail scrape attitude is not achieved until after lift off? This is a particular concern on 4 eng./ long bodied aircraft which do not "leap" off the ground like most twins.
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cosmo..
My rotation teaching...
Start visually to establish the correct rate, scan horizon and PFD, monitoring IAS, and transfer full attention to the PFD before you lose outside horizon reference. For me that means before 10 degrees pitch.
Works in all weathers, and avoids that hesitation at 8-10 degrees.
My rotation teaching...
Start visually to establish the correct rate, scan horizon and PFD, monitoring IAS, and transfer full attention to the PFD before you lose outside horizon reference. For me that means before 10 degrees pitch.
Works in all weathers, and avoids that hesitation at 8-10 degrees.
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You may prefer the American method. Steer it straight down the runway and hold 'er on the deck an extra 10 knots or so past VR (you know all CAT III runways are 15000 feet long and you know it's okay so don't give me any bunk about the performance numbers only being valid at the calculated speeds, flex takeoff power and balanced field lengths or any other high-brow gibberish). Then give it a SLOW rotation for about 3 seconds and hold the nose JUST before where you lose sight of the horizon. Then, count "one-potato-TWO" and HONK back on the wheel / stick like you mean it. Which you will, because some of the faint glow you will see where the runway lights should be, will be yellow about now. T.L.A.R. That Looks About Right and HEAVE HO we are off and flying.
Now, you should have a touch of vertigo now as you are still staring out the window into the formless grey void. It's a visual maneuver until airborne so stay visual until airborne, right? All the way or nothing at all brother. So now STARE INTENTLY at the PFD, and try to resolve the 25 degree nose-up attitude you see (since you are still pulling the stick back in the Hammer Grip of Death) and push 'er on over to get back to a normal 15 degree pitch. After a few phugoid porpoises, hit the autopilot on and be done with it.
Now you see why we waited for some extra speed before the "grease-off".
Isn't that how you do it every time in really crummy weather?
For the landings, I think a better technique is to do nothing until the 20 foot call, then chop the power, flare a touch, close your eyes and pray. Works about as good as any other technique.
Now, you should have a touch of vertigo now as you are still staring out the window into the formless grey void. It's a visual maneuver until airborne so stay visual until airborne, right? All the way or nothing at all brother. So now STARE INTENTLY at the PFD, and try to resolve the 25 degree nose-up attitude you see (since you are still pulling the stick back in the Hammer Grip of Death) and push 'er on over to get back to a normal 15 degree pitch. After a few phugoid porpoises, hit the autopilot on and be done with it.
Now you see why we waited for some extra speed before the "grease-off".
Isn't that how you do it every time in really crummy weather?
For the landings, I think a better technique is to do nothing until the 20 foot call, then chop the power, flare a touch, close your eyes and pray. Works about as good as any other technique.
Funny about needing RAD ALT calls BELOW 10'
When checking out in the C-5, the IP covered up the RAD ALT--"you need to be able to land without it".
When checking out in the C-5, the IP covered up the RAD ALT--"you need to be able to land without it".
At the risk of sounding big headed, I usualy achieve a gentle landing within the touch down zone. Sometimes I smack it in, sometimes I float it, but usually it goes OK, and that is without the RADALT callouts below 10' (Obviously, having made that bold claim, my next few landings will be awful, so I apologise to the passengers and the airframes in advance !!)
Fly a couple of years at EGBB in a Dash 8 Q400 and you will learn a great deal about how to do turbulent crosswind landings
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For the landings, I think a better technique is to do nothing until the 20 foot call, then chop the power, flare a touch, close your eyes and pray. Works about as good as any other technique.
When asked by a cadet about the height to flare, the standard reply was "point the thing at the crash pint and keep it there. When the captain has a sharp intake of breath and lifts himself out of his seat slightly, then flare - but not too much otherwise the wings trend to get a large dimple the top surface. Works about as good as...........
Regarding RAD ALT call outs below 50'; ask the LOT B767 pilot who greased it on with no undercarriage. I suspect his RAD ALT call outs based on gear height would have been confusing, if there were any at all, which I doubt.
When asked by a cadet about the height to flare, the standard reply was "point the thing at the crash pint and keep it there. When the captain has a sharp intake of breath and lifts himself out of his seat slightly, then flare - but not too much otherwise the wings trend to get a large dimple the top surface. Works about as good as...........
Regarding RAD ALT call outs below 50'; ask the LOT B767 pilot who greased it on with no undercarriage. I suspect his RAD ALT call outs based on gear height would have been confusing, if there were any at all, which I doubt.
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It's funny that I get all this resistance towards looking out. If you don't think I am correct. Perhaps you would take this advice from Airbus instead:
This is the advice of the most computerised aircraft manufacturer. Boeing doesn't write it as explicit. Note Airbus' use of the word conventional. It keep me wondering that people resist doing a rotation visually. Hence, why I brought it up in this landing thread, because it's an unfortunate trend that people doesn't trust their vision anymore, because they are afraid it's less accurate than instruments. Hence, they make poor landings, because they use a wrong technique (looking inside instead of outside)...
As long as visual reference is available, your eyes are the most finely tuned instruments in the cockpit!
It was already discussed intensively in the following thread (I repost one of my replies):
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/22385...tations-2.html
You don't loose outside reference until long after airborne if you are seated correctly.
You don't need to see the runway itself, you need to have outside reference. Do you think looking at the runway (long ahead of the aircraft), will help you know how close your tail is?
It's like with flare, you don't need to look at where you want to touchdown (you look at the end of the runway).
For rotation, all you need is a combination of lateral reference and peripheral vision. Peripheral vision does wonders in judging a rate. If you keep the correct rate, your don't have to worry about tail strike, because you performance calculations take care of that for you:
Otherwise, see my replies to Dani in the mentioned thread.
It needs experience, hence commanders takeoff only. The experience that you have done countless rotations previously, and that you know exactly how the rotation is supposed to feel. That combined with an early transition to instruments, which is then less likely to be screwed up because of said experience. Watching the PFD at from 0 feet is not what I would recommend. The aircraft is still on the runway and you wan't to keep a good look at those center line lights for as long as possible. Once those center line lights are lost, you obviously switch to the PFD - when that happens (which it won't until well into the rotation) you should already have a smooth rate established, that you can safely continue to pull.
Not to derail the subject, perhaps it is better to continue rotation technique in that thread? Since most of the questions have already been asked and answered there.
A320 FCTM
Takeoff:
Rotation is conventional. The PF must perform the rotation mainly head-up, using outside visual reference until airborne, or at least until visual cues are lost, depending on visibility conditions. The PF must then (*after airborne*) monitor the pitch attitude on the PFD.
Takeoff:
Rotation is conventional. The PF must perform the rotation mainly head-up, using outside visual reference until airborne, or at least until visual cues are lost, depending on visibility conditions. The PF must then (*after airborne*) monitor the pitch attitude on the PFD.
As long as visual reference is available, your eyes are the most finely tuned instruments in the cockpit!
It was already discussed intensively in the following thread (I repost one of my replies):
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/22385...tations-2.html
I have in other recent threads been advocated strongly that people look out the window when completing the final part of the approach. By that I mean stop looking at the instruments (except for airspeed) and maintain lateral and vertical path by looking at the touchdown point at below 300 feet latest (weather dependent of course).
Apparently, the need to look out the window needs to be emphasized when it comes to takeoff as well.
When PM calls V1, I have a confirming look myself and thereafter only look out the window until established in the climb, completing the takeoff by going back to the instruments and adjusting pitch to maintain V2+20.
By looking out you have a complete feel for how the aircraft is reacting to the rotation and adjustment is then much easier. Plus it makes spotting drift and maintaining centerline much easier as well (from lining up behind departing aircrafts apparently a discipline that few care about in these days). The feel for the right rate is much easier to spot in a real 3 dimensional world, than on a 2D instrument.
To look out the window you have to be seated properly at the designed eye reference position. All too many are seated completely wrong, too low and too leaned back (but I guess they think this increases the coolness factor
).
Apparently, the need to look out the window needs to be emphasized when it comes to takeoff as well.
When PM calls V1, I have a confirming look myself and thereafter only look out the window until established in the climb, completing the takeoff by going back to the instruments and adjusting pitch to maintain V2+20.
By looking out you have a complete feel for how the aircraft is reacting to the rotation and adjustment is then much easier. Plus it makes spotting drift and maintaining centerline much easier as well (from lining up behind departing aircrafts apparently a discipline that few care about in these days). The feel for the right rate is much easier to spot in a real 3 dimensional world, than on a 2D instrument.
To look out the window you have to be seated properly at the designed eye reference position. All too many are seated completely wrong, too low and too leaned back (but I guess they think this increases the coolness factor
).
Cosmo Kramer: During the takeoff rotation phase once sight of the runway is obscured by the coming of the cockpit can you explain why it is better to stare at the blank sky and not bother to check the progression of the rotation attitude with a view to ensuring that a tail scrape attitude is not achieved until after lift off? This is a particular concern on 4 eng./ long bodied aircraft which do not "leap" off the ground like most twins.
It's like with flare, you don't need to look at where you want to touchdown (you look at the end of the runway).
For rotation, all you need is a combination of lateral reference and peripheral vision. Peripheral vision does wonders in judging a rate. If you keep the correct rate, your don't have to worry about tail strike, because you performance calculations take care of that for you:
When a smooth continuous rotation is initiated at VR, tail clearance margin is assured because computed takeoff speeds depicted in the PI chapter of the FCOM, airport analysis, or FMC, are developed to provide adequate tail clearance.
RAT5:
Likewise, for a low visibility takeoff a special rotation technique is required
Please enlighten us.
Likewise, for a low visibility takeoff a special rotation technique is required
Please enlighten us.
Not to derail the subject, perhaps it is better to continue rotation technique in that thread? Since most of the questions have already been asked and answered there.