737-200 V1 cut
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737-200 V1 cut
on a 737 -200 any other cues on the v1 cut or engine out take off other than centering the ball with rudder, maintaining v2 and straight and level flight on the ADI
Dead foot dead engine works fine as ONE means of identification, but is not of itself sufficient (see later comment about shutting down an engine). You could be experiencing some control asymmetry. Unlike some light twin training that you may have received, don't be tempted to give it a boot-full of rudder to keep straight, because if you do, it will roll badly and you will be in serious trouble. If you are doing the exercise in a simulator, it will probably crash to teach you not to do this. Just 'squeeze' the rudder enough (some describe it as 'step on the ball') to keep the ball within half a diameter of centred.
Obviously first job is fly it, second job is clean it up and third set max continuous thrust (many trainees miss this step in their haste to get on with the shut down drill). Whether or not you can engage autopilot for continued climb will depend on SOP and the actual autopilot fit, though obviously it is a better and safer operation with the autopilot offloading you during the next stage which is the identification and shut down. Some old B737 Jurassics don't take kindly to OEI autopilot operation, though if properly trimmed they should be OK. Ditto the simulator.
Then - and again unlike your light twin training, there is absolutely no rush to do this - go through the identification process at a safe height. In real life, jet engines rarely just go completely dead at exactly V1, even though we train a lot of this exercise to satisfy the licencing people. Same with engine fire - it is extremely rare to have fire with simultaneous total loss of thrust. So, in the real world (as opposed to simulator) chances are some thrust will still be produced and this would help you gain altitude and acceleration through clean-up. By 'sitting on your hands' for a minute or so you are using the dying engine to your advantage. But even if the exercise is a 'dead cut', no matter, no rush.
Before doing anything drastic like shutting down an engine, you should be identifying and confirming with your other crew which engine has failed, and indeed whether it has completely or only partly failed. EPR, N1, EGT and vibration indicators provide the clues. Don't be suckered into believing it is only a loss of oil because the oil pressure light is on or the gauge is reading low - that is usually a consequence of the engine running down. If it IS only loss of oil pressure, the engine will probably produce thrust for quite some time - more than enough to gently throttle it back and reach for the QRH.
Some SOPs actually require that an engine will only be shut down with TWO, or more, indications of failure. In the case of a fire warning with no loss of thrust or obvious over-temperature or vibration, that means the bell and the red light are counted as the two indications.
Obviously first job is fly it, second job is clean it up and third set max continuous thrust (many trainees miss this step in their haste to get on with the shut down drill). Whether or not you can engage autopilot for continued climb will depend on SOP and the actual autopilot fit, though obviously it is a better and safer operation with the autopilot offloading you during the next stage which is the identification and shut down. Some old B737 Jurassics don't take kindly to OEI autopilot operation, though if properly trimmed they should be OK. Ditto the simulator.
Then - and again unlike your light twin training, there is absolutely no rush to do this - go through the identification process at a safe height. In real life, jet engines rarely just go completely dead at exactly V1, even though we train a lot of this exercise to satisfy the licencing people. Same with engine fire - it is extremely rare to have fire with simultaneous total loss of thrust. So, in the real world (as opposed to simulator) chances are some thrust will still be produced and this would help you gain altitude and acceleration through clean-up. By 'sitting on your hands' for a minute or so you are using the dying engine to your advantage. But even if the exercise is a 'dead cut', no matter, no rush.
Before doing anything drastic like shutting down an engine, you should be identifying and confirming with your other crew which engine has failed, and indeed whether it has completely or only partly failed. EPR, N1, EGT and vibration indicators provide the clues. Don't be suckered into believing it is only a loss of oil because the oil pressure light is on or the gauge is reading low - that is usually a consequence of the engine running down. If it IS only loss of oil pressure, the engine will probably produce thrust for quite some time - more than enough to gently throttle it back and reach for the QRH.
Some SOPs actually require that an engine will only be shut down with TWO, or more, indications of failure. In the case of a fire warning with no loss of thrust or obvious over-temperature or vibration, that means the bell and the red light are counted as the two indications.
Junkflier I think you might mean 'Vr". Either way that is extremely poor advice. Regardless of how you feel, rotate at Vr because that is the way your performance is calculated and on a limiting runway it will end badly if you use your own little ideas instead of certified data.
250etc don't try to be too academic here! Just look out the window and stop the world going across it sideways. Be very aware and ready to work the ailerons and rudder a little as you lift off, once again look out the window. A glance at the sky pointer is useful too. As Mach E says, use up the engine and don't be in too big a rush to shut it down. After all, if it has seized up or something a delay won't hurt it any more but if it is dying the thrust still available is pure gold for your performance.
Don't rush things, there is very rarely any need to be hasty and an error will be costly. A bit of armchair flying where you literally say out loud all the calls/statements required by your SOPs is a great help I find. If I'm swept up in the moment in the sim I know what I should say and do because I've been there in a virtual sense a few times.
250etc don't try to be too academic here! Just look out the window and stop the world going across it sideways. Be very aware and ready to work the ailerons and rudder a little as you lift off, once again look out the window. A glance at the sky pointer is useful too. As Mach E says, use up the engine and don't be in too big a rush to shut it down. After all, if it has seized up or something a delay won't hurt it any more but if it is dying the thrust still available is pure gold for your performance.
Don't rush things, there is very rarely any need to be hasty and an error will be costly. A bit of armchair flying where you literally say out loud all the calls/statements required by your SOPs is a great help I find. If I'm swept up in the moment in the sim I know what I should say and do because I've been there in a virtual sense a few times.
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on a 737 -200 any other cues on the v1 cut or engine out take off other than centering the ball with rudder, maintaining v2 and straight and level flight on the ADI
If you get confused and crossed controlled (ailerons/rudder) ask PNF to set the right rudder trim on the EPR as above and sort the ailerons out based on that.
Well actually no he's not totally incorrect.
Luckily in a lot of cases there is a split between V1 and VR which allows you to fix the correct amount of rudder before liftoff. This does help quite a bit. I wouldn't delay VR though if the split is small.
Once you put the Rudder in then lock your leg and only make small adjustments.
When you have the correct amount of Rudder the Control Wheel ( yoke ) should be level. If the Yoke is to the right then more right rudder ( or less left rudder depending!! ) is required.
Try not to over control!!
Luckily in a lot of cases there is a split between V1 and VR which allows you to fix the correct amount of rudder before liftoff. This does help quite a bit. I wouldn't delay VR though if the split is small.
Once you put the Rudder in then lock your leg and only make small adjustments.
When you have the correct amount of Rudder the Control Wheel ( yoke ) should be level. If the Yoke is to the right then more right rudder ( or less left rudder depending!! ) is required.
Try not to over control!!
Machiavelli, if he's talking about Sim tips I have one. Forget 'the ball'.
Your average 732 Sim was probably constructed in the 70's, when Simulation technology was pretty basic compared to today's machines. The ones I've 'flown' most often had sticky balls (ahem) if they even moved at all. They were one of the least realistically simulated elements of the cockpit instrumentation.
The right way to handle a V1 cut in one of these Junkers is to concentrate on the sky pointer. Remember we are talking a SIM here, so I'm not saying ignore the ball in the real thing - but in a Sim, this works.
When the engine fails in the Sim you may or may not cop which one it is through other cues, but if all else fails you, just look at the sky pointer. As yaw creates roll you'll see the divergence clearly. The purists will hate this, but FOR THE SIM IT WORKS. You need to act reasonably snappy, because if you let the roll build up you'll lose it.
Another tip.
When you apply the rudder, put in the amount you think is correct (practice makes perfect!) then HOLD IT. Do NOT be tempted to cycle it - these old sims get confused by that and start displaying all sorts of unwanted behavior.
Get it climbing away, get the gear up, settle down, and now look at the control yoke. If its dead level and you're tracking straight - congratulations, you nailed it. If you need roll to track straight you'll see the yoke is displaced, and the 'down side' is pointing to the leg that needs more rudder. Make that adjustment gently. Trim it, and see how she's doing. Remember speed changes will quickly change the rudder required, so try to fly speed accurately.
Regarding holding it on the runway or not - ask your instructor to let you use a Wet V1 on the first few attempts. If he fails the engine at V1 you'll still have around 8 or 10 knots to gain before Vr. This gives you time to nail the rudder. Get the feel of it. Then try a standard V1 cut and use muscle memory for the input.
Those old sims don't yaw, so it is really challenging to catch a V1 cut with no visual cues. Remember that.
You're a hero when you are consistently doing it right.
The 732 is a real mans aeroplane. A joy to fly. The best days of my flying were on that wee beast. Sadly I now fly a computer with wings.
Your average 732 Sim was probably constructed in the 70's, when Simulation technology was pretty basic compared to today's machines. The ones I've 'flown' most often had sticky balls (ahem) if they even moved at all. They were one of the least realistically simulated elements of the cockpit instrumentation.
The right way to handle a V1 cut in one of these Junkers is to concentrate on the sky pointer. Remember we are talking a SIM here, so I'm not saying ignore the ball in the real thing - but in a Sim, this works.
When the engine fails in the Sim you may or may not cop which one it is through other cues, but if all else fails you, just look at the sky pointer. As yaw creates roll you'll see the divergence clearly. The purists will hate this, but FOR THE SIM IT WORKS. You need to act reasonably snappy, because if you let the roll build up you'll lose it.
Another tip.
When you apply the rudder, put in the amount you think is correct (practice makes perfect!) then HOLD IT. Do NOT be tempted to cycle it - these old sims get confused by that and start displaying all sorts of unwanted behavior.
Get it climbing away, get the gear up, settle down, and now look at the control yoke. If its dead level and you're tracking straight - congratulations, you nailed it. If you need roll to track straight you'll see the yoke is displaced, and the 'down side' is pointing to the leg that needs more rudder. Make that adjustment gently. Trim it, and see how she's doing. Remember speed changes will quickly change the rudder required, so try to fly speed accurately.
Regarding holding it on the runway or not - ask your instructor to let you use a Wet V1 on the first few attempts. If he fails the engine at V1 you'll still have around 8 or 10 knots to gain before Vr. This gives you time to nail the rudder. Get the feel of it. Then try a standard V1 cut and use muscle memory for the input.
Those old sims don't yaw, so it is really challenging to catch a V1 cut with no visual cues. Remember that.
You're a hero when you are consistently doing it right.
The 732 is a real mans aeroplane. A joy to fly. The best days of my flying were on that wee beast. Sadly I now fly a computer with wings.
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Junkflier I think you might mean 'Vr". Either way that is extremely poor advice. Regardless of how you feel, rotate at Vr because that is the way your performance is calculated and on a limiting runway it will end badly if you use your own little ideas instead of certified data.
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Personally, I did put a "bootfull of rudder" in when there was a V1 cut. What else can you do to maintain or stay close to the centreline.
The best advice here so far is the guys saying to hold that rudder input. I found for the sim that I was flying that the visuals were poor. After putting in the appropriate amount of rudder, the visual showed what appeared to be the aircraft rolling down the runway at a considerable angle to the runway. The first couple of times. I backed off the rudder and went off the side. The good advice you see here for locking your leg worked fine with strange visuals ignored.
I have to admit that I used the skypointer very little for the ground portion of the V1 cut as most concentration was spent staying on the runway. I suspect that the earlier poster meant for the airborne part.
Rotation speed is critical. Believe it or not, for normal ops the 737-200 was initially allowed a 6° rotation rate which is now 3°. Anyways, a nice controlled rotation rate to perhaps 12° nose-up should work and keep you from experiencing stickshaker.
During the rotation is when I would transition to instrument flying with a back and forth inside and out in order to monitor the pitch as well as still maintaining the centreline. Just going straight to the ADI risks allowing the aircraft to drift toward the runway edge.
Done properly, the aircraft seemed to find itself magically at V2 and now a good instrument scan is essential with good pitch control to monitor airspeed and frequent monitoring of heading which can be adjusted with minor rudder adjustments. Wings level worked for me and is the recommendation even if VMCA is affected by not banking into the live engine.
Aileron input was little to none as it risks spoiler deployment and increased drag on an aircraft that is not exactly overpowered. Perhaps someone can post at what control wheel deflection there is spoiler deployment. It is not a lot'
The next thing for me was four twists of the rudder trim knob to relieve rudder pressure required and try to hold everything to the acceleration height with a few minor inputs and continuous scanning.
Then accelerate and clean up with appropriate elevator trim as required while accelerating and backing off rudder input and retrimming as speed increases. I seem to remember a bit of a nose down tendency when the slats retract so that can be anticipated for the final flap selection. I never looked at the rudder trim knob itself during such a maneuver to check the amount of units. It was all done by feel as your instrument scan is critical.
I have to admit, I didn't look at the ball much either and seem to remember it being inaccurate in our sim. However, some of the more experienced posters may recommend more emphasis on the ball.
But its been a while so any comments are welcome.
The best advice here so far is the guys saying to hold that rudder input. I found for the sim that I was flying that the visuals were poor. After putting in the appropriate amount of rudder, the visual showed what appeared to be the aircraft rolling down the runway at a considerable angle to the runway. The first couple of times. I backed off the rudder and went off the side. The good advice you see here for locking your leg worked fine with strange visuals ignored.
I have to admit that I used the skypointer very little for the ground portion of the V1 cut as most concentration was spent staying on the runway. I suspect that the earlier poster meant for the airborne part.
Rotation speed is critical. Believe it or not, for normal ops the 737-200 was initially allowed a 6° rotation rate which is now 3°. Anyways, a nice controlled rotation rate to perhaps 12° nose-up should work and keep you from experiencing stickshaker.
During the rotation is when I would transition to instrument flying with a back and forth inside and out in order to monitor the pitch as well as still maintaining the centreline. Just going straight to the ADI risks allowing the aircraft to drift toward the runway edge.
Done properly, the aircraft seemed to find itself magically at V2 and now a good instrument scan is essential with good pitch control to monitor airspeed and frequent monitoring of heading which can be adjusted with minor rudder adjustments. Wings level worked for me and is the recommendation even if VMCA is affected by not banking into the live engine.
Aileron input was little to none as it risks spoiler deployment and increased drag on an aircraft that is not exactly overpowered. Perhaps someone can post at what control wheel deflection there is spoiler deployment. It is not a lot'
The next thing for me was four twists of the rudder trim knob to relieve rudder pressure required and try to hold everything to the acceleration height with a few minor inputs and continuous scanning.
Then accelerate and clean up with appropriate elevator trim as required while accelerating and backing off rudder input and retrimming as speed increases. I seem to remember a bit of a nose down tendency when the slats retract so that can be anticipated for the final flap selection. I never looked at the rudder trim knob itself during such a maneuver to check the amount of units. It was all done by feel as your instrument scan is critical.
I have to admit, I didn't look at the ball much either and seem to remember it being inaccurate in our sim. However, some of the more experienced posters may recommend more emphasis on the ball.
But its been a while so any comments are welcome.
Last edited by JammedStab; 6th Jan 2014 at 11:38.
Its a few years since I "flew" a 737-200 simulator which was the Lan Chile machine in Santiago, Chile. The visuals were poor and I had doubts about its fidelity. I know for the 737-300 simulator you need to keep in mind that the take off stabiliser trim setting is based upon a two engine VR. Obviously same with the 737-200.
If an engine fails while you are still between V1 and VR, be prepared for a heavy pull at VR much more than you would normally expect. That is because with one engine failed on the runway, the vertical vector of thrust normal with both engines going, is halved. That translates into a nose heavy pull off the ground. Best thing is to ask the simulator instructor to hop in a seat and demonstrate the manoeuvre - if he is game to. Most won't because they are not confident to demo an engine failure on take off without making a fool of themselves
In the simulator with engine failure at V1, we frequently see people relaxing on the heavy back pressure during rotation and flying back into the runway a couple of skips before getting airborne. So be prepared for real muscling to get the aircraft up near to 10-13 degrees. When well clear of the ground by about 200 feet then a fair amount of back stab trim (about three seconds) is needed to unload the back pressure.
If an engine fails while you are still between V1 and VR, be prepared for a heavy pull at VR much more than you would normally expect. That is because with one engine failed on the runway, the vertical vector of thrust normal with both engines going, is halved. That translates into a nose heavy pull off the ground. Best thing is to ask the simulator instructor to hop in a seat and demonstrate the manoeuvre - if he is game to. Most won't because they are not confident to demo an engine failure on take off without making a fool of themselves
In the simulator with engine failure at V1, we frequently see people relaxing on the heavy back pressure during rotation and flying back into the runway a couple of skips before getting airborne. So be prepared for real muscling to get the aircraft up near to 10-13 degrees. When well clear of the ground by about 200 feet then a fair amount of back stab trim (about three seconds) is needed to unload the back pressure.
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As Killaroo said, the most important thing you can do to stabilize your a/c is keep your controls straight in your hands. Step on the down side. If your controls are level, you have the right rudder input. If you're using a bunch of aileron to stay straight, then you're creating a lot of drag which may well be enough to prevent a positive climb.
A couple of posters have mentioned CON thrust. Unless there's been a dramatic change since I flew the old noise maker, you keep t/o thrust until the end of your second segment and until you are cleaned up. Only then do you select CON thrust.
Imagine that your live engine thrust lever is attached to the foot on the same side. When you make thrust adjustments as you fly to your landing runway you will be out of trim again every time you move the thrust. As an example let's say you are beginning to configure from clean. Assume your left engine is shutdown. As you put flap out you have to increase thrust on your right engine. As you make that thrust increase, your right foot pushes in at the same time. If you reduce thrust your foot comes back or reduces pressure a bit. During the flare you may have to step slightly on the dead engine side because you're trimmed for the approach and you don't have time to re-trim in the flare. At all times make sure that you do this enough to keep the stick (roll control) straight in you hands, unless you are turning of course.
A couple of posters have mentioned CON thrust. Unless there's been a dramatic change since I flew the old noise maker, you keep t/o thrust until the end of your second segment and until you are cleaned up. Only then do you select CON thrust.
Imagine that your live engine thrust lever is attached to the foot on the same side. When you make thrust adjustments as you fly to your landing runway you will be out of trim again every time you move the thrust. As an example let's say you are beginning to configure from clean. Assume your left engine is shutdown. As you put flap out you have to increase thrust on your right engine. As you make that thrust increase, your right foot pushes in at the same time. If you reduce thrust your foot comes back or reduces pressure a bit. During the flare you may have to step slightly on the dead engine side because you're trimmed for the approach and you don't have time to re-trim in the flare. At all times make sure that you do this enough to keep the stick (roll control) straight in you hands, unless you are turning of course.
Last edited by 5LY; 6th Jan 2014 at 18:06.
Being pedantic, but Max Continuous Thrust is set at the commencement of the fourth segment, i.e. following final flap and slat retraction during the third.
Because the simulator is unlikely to have 'zero flight time' approval, it is probable that you will have to complete a base exercise in the real deal before qualifying for the type rating. If so, be very careful about any OEI stuff close to V speeds for light weights, given that the bird will likely be very light for training. Prudent flight instructors will use 'canned' V speeds that are higher than actual minimums and will use max derated thrust at all times. Also, hopefully, they will feed in any simulated engine failure by slowly reducing thrust. I repeat, if that happens do not use a boot-full of rudder and never, ever kick it. It is extremely powerful; enough to rip the tail off an old airframe. Rudder responds quite adequately to a gradual but firm increase in pressure - 'squeeze' it while simultaneously holding wings level and setting the pitch attitude for V2 to V2 plus 10. At training weights it is more likely to already be at V2 plus 10 or even plus 20 by the time the failure is recognised. If it is performing OK at that speed (it will be), stay with it - don't go hauling the nose up to come back to V2.
The Jurassic is a great thing to fly; the nicest of the 737 series, and with the lack of automatics you really feel involved with it.
Last question - some -200s were gravel kitted. Later Classics were not.
Because the simulator is unlikely to have 'zero flight time' approval, it is probable that you will have to complete a base exercise in the real deal before qualifying for the type rating. If so, be very careful about any OEI stuff close to V speeds for light weights, given that the bird will likely be very light for training. Prudent flight instructors will use 'canned' V speeds that are higher than actual minimums and will use max derated thrust at all times. Also, hopefully, they will feed in any simulated engine failure by slowly reducing thrust. I repeat, if that happens do not use a boot-full of rudder and never, ever kick it. It is extremely powerful; enough to rip the tail off an old airframe. Rudder responds quite adequately to a gradual but firm increase in pressure - 'squeeze' it while simultaneously holding wings level and setting the pitch attitude for V2 to V2 plus 10. At training weights it is more likely to already be at V2 plus 10 or even plus 20 by the time the failure is recognised. If it is performing OK at that speed (it will be), stay with it - don't go hauling the nose up to come back to V2.
The Jurassic is a great thing to fly; the nicest of the 737 series, and with the lack of automatics you really feel involved with it.
Last question - some -200s were gravel kitted. Later Classics were not.
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As long as you're airborne before you run out of Tarmac there's no problem
I think, no.
The observation is fine for the runway consideration .. but might just get the aeroplane into all sorts of obstacle clearance problems. Fly it like the ops engineering folk planned it or, else, get them to change the plan to fit the way you want to fly it.
I think, no.
The observation is fine for the runway consideration .. but might just get the aeroplane into all sorts of obstacle clearance problems. Fly it like the ops engineering folk planned it or, else, get them to change the plan to fit the way you want to fly it.
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V1 cut on 737-200
@ Mach E Avelli Your post has been very helpful especially the first reply which states what I have been doing. I have no problem controlling the aircraft on the runway as the instructor gives me the cut 5-10kts before v1. I identify the left engine total failure and use the right rudder to control it, I overstep on the rudder(Multi Engine Training) and just before 400ft I am uncontrollably flying to the ground. Nose down, level wings fail to help me here as I get too close to the ground and I find myself fighting a big beast who isn't going to give in. Do you think a reduction of thrust while I stabilize the aircraft will help me in this critical phase of t/o while I try to gain full a/c control?(wings level as I approach the horizon).
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killaroo
@killaroo The main problem starts just after liftoff the plane(sim) tends to roll to the left assuming the left engine was cut on v1. I apply rudder maintaining v2 and it gets steady for a few 100 feet and then goes almost 45 degrees left on me. I start fighting the beast and it fights me even harder.
N.B the cut on approach is even better as I tend to control the plane in the air with rud trim but for some reason on t.o it just wins the battle which I am going crazy trying to win before my check ride
N.B the cut on approach is even better as I tend to control the plane in the air with rud trim but for some reason on t.o it just wins the battle which I am going crazy trying to win before my check ride
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v1 cut on 737-200
@5LY, mustafagander....NOTED.
@Centarus.... The instructor doesn't advise to use stab trim or rud trim till after thrust reduction height
@Centarus.... The instructor doesn't advise to use stab trim or rud trim till after thrust reduction height
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junkflyer has it. he has flown a 737-200 sim (or simmed it).
put some rudder trim in before you bring the nose up, it will make it easier.
this is for the SIM only mind you.
also, have the sim instructor turn up the engine volume...you can hear the engines go out of sync.
they taught us to look at our thumbs. ;-)
put some rudder trim in before you bring the nose up, it will make it easier.
this is for the SIM only mind you.
also, have the sim instructor turn up the engine volume...you can hear the engines go out of sync.
they taught us to look at our thumbs. ;-)
@Centarus.... The instructor doesn't advise to use stab trim or rud trim till after thrust reduction height
With any flight you use the stab trim to relieve stick forces just like ab initio flight in singles. IMHO your instructor is simply wrong in his assertion. Obviously you would not use stab trim during rotation but once comfortably clear of the runway it would be appropriate to keep the aircraft in trim. The last thing you need is fighting the trim changes until thrust reduction altitude.
