Intersection takeoff in LVO
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Spandex,
My problem is you saying you have to taxi down a runway first to see a centre line light before you commence takeoff.
A blazing set of Cat3 touchdown lights is superior to just 15m centre lights. We need the 15m centre lights because for some part of the takeoff you will use them. That's why they are needed as a basic minimum. Let me put it another way. Where in EU-OPS does it say you must commence the takeoff from the first 15m centre light ? It says you commence takeoff when you have established a visual cue of 90 m
Do you always use the legally required red stop end lights on a every night takeoff ? No. but must you have them because its a legal requirement yes. Do you always use the standby power system for the ILS ? No. but must you have it because its a legal requirement yes.
You base your performance on a formally declared TODA which is based on particular published holding points. In many cases that has nothing to do with the beginning of the runway threshold hence you would bust your performance with no way to recalculate.
My problem is you saying you have to taxi down a runway first to see a centre line light before you commence takeoff.
A blazing set of Cat3 touchdown lights is superior to just 15m centre lights. We need the 15m centre lights because for some part of the takeoff you will use them. That's why they are needed as a basic minimum. Let me put it another way. Where in EU-OPS does it say you must commence the takeoff from the first 15m centre light ? It says you commence takeoff when you have established a visual cue of 90 m
Do you always use the legally required red stop end lights on a every night takeoff ? No. but must you have them because its a legal requirement yes. Do you always use the standby power system for the ILS ? No. but must you have it because its a legal requirement yes.
You base your performance on a formally declared TODA which is based on particular published holding points. In many cases that has nothing to do with the beginning of the runway threshold hence you would bust your performance with no way to recalculate.
Last edited by 8che; 2nd Nov 2013 at 01:29.
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You know when people jump in halfway through a conversation and make an arse of themselves...
Well dear Rudderthing wasn't talking about a rejected take off was he. Which is why I said, and I quote, "your 60kts thing".
You understand the difference between accelerating to 60kts and decelerating to 60kts I hope.
Well dear Rudderthing wasn't talking about a rejected take off was he. Which is why I said, and I quote, "your 60kts thing".
You understand the difference between accelerating to 60kts and decelerating to 60kts I hope.
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8
Hang on, where are the touch down lights in relation to the displaced threshold? You need the 15m lights and the 90m visual segment and etc.. Not just one, or two or whatever you feel like. Where in EUOPS does it say you only need the 90m segment?
It's called EFB. Runway shortening XXXm from the beginning or the end. Calculate.
A blazing set of Cat3 touchdown lights is superior to just 15m centre lights. We need the 15m centre lights because for some part of the takeoff you will use them. That's why they are needed as a basic minimum. Let me put it another way. Where in EU-OPS does it say you must commence the takeoff from the first 15m centre light ? It says you commence takeoff when you have established a visual cue of 90 m
You base your performance on a formally declared TODA which is based on particular published holding points. In many cases that has nothing to do with the beginning of the runway threshold hence you would bust your performance with no way to recalculate.
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Just quoting this post as it's easier than cut and paste.
Where does it say you only need to meet one of these requirements?
Where does it say you only need to meet one of these requirements?
EU-OPS about 125 m take offs:
(i) Subject to the approval of the Authority, and provided the requirements in paragraphs (A) to (E) below have been satisfied, an operator may reduce the take-off minima to 125 m RVR (Category A, B and C aeroplanes) or 150 m RVR (Category D aeroplanes) when:
(A) Low visibility procedures are in force;
(B) High intensity runway centreline lights spaced 15 m or less and high intensity edge lights spaced 60 m or less are in operation;
(C) Flight crew members have satisfactorily completed training in a flight simulator;
(D) A 90 m visual segment is available from the cockpit at the start of the take-off run; and
(E) The required RVR value has been achieved for all of the relevant RVR reporting points.
My understanding is that pilot assessment cannot replace RVR readings for take-offs in 125 m visibility. And taking the book literally I guess you need 15 meter spacing from the start of your take off. But this is not the case at LGW you say?
(i) Subject to the approval of the Authority, and provided the requirements in paragraphs (A) to (E) below have been satisfied, an operator may reduce the take-off minima to 125 m RVR (Category A, B and C aeroplanes) or 150 m RVR (Category D aeroplanes) when:
(A) Low visibility procedures are in force;
(B) High intensity runway centreline lights spaced 15 m or less and high intensity edge lights spaced 60 m or less are in operation;
(C) Flight crew members have satisfactorily completed training in a flight simulator;
(D) A 90 m visual segment is available from the cockpit at the start of the take-off run; and
(E) The required RVR value has been achieved for all of the relevant RVR reporting points.
My understanding is that pilot assessment cannot replace RVR readings for take-offs in 125 m visibility. And taking the book literally I guess you need 15 meter spacing from the start of your take off. But this is not the case at LGW you say?
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Never mind, I'll quote it for you and highlight the relevant bit.
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Touchdown lights continue up to 3000 ft after the threshold on a cat2/3 runway !
Yes you have to have 15m lights on the runway and working. Where does it say you have to establish the 90m visual only with the use of 15m centre line lighting ?
At what point did I suggest removing any of those requirements ?
So now you are going to manually adjust your EFB outside the declared holding point distances in LVP's are you.
Yes you have to have 15m lights on the runway and working. Where does it say you have to establish the 90m visual only with the use of 15m centre line lighting ?
At what point did I suggest removing any of those requirements ?
So now you are going to manually adjust your EFB outside the declared holding point distances in LVP's are you.
Last edited by 8che; 2nd Nov 2013 at 01:53.
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Seriously John, thanks.
So Rudderthing, doesn't have relevant RVRs OR the legal lighting requirements if he's starting from the beginning of the threshold as there are no RVRs reported until the TDZ. 
Relevant Runway Visual Range
Take-off
RVR for that part of the runway used to accelerate to V1 followed by a rejected take-off and deceleration down to a speed of approximately 60 knots.
Take-off
RVR for that part of the runway used to accelerate to V1 followed by a rejected take-off and deceleration down to a speed of approximately 60 knots.
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Yes you have to have 15m lights on the runway and working. Where does it say you have to establish the 90m visual only with the use of 15m centre line lighting ?
So now you are going to manually adjust your EFB are you outside the declared holding point distances in LVP's are you.
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and you do have both for the 4th time !
15m centre line lights plus a 90m segment. They don't turn the centre line lights off because I used the touchdown lights to ascertain the 90m visual do they ?.
Cat2/3 approach lights on a displaced threshold are also set at 30m barretts. So no difference is there
15m centre line lights plus a 90m segment. They don't turn the centre line lights off because I used the touchdown lights to ascertain the 90m visual do they ?.
Cat2/3 approach lights on a displaced threshold are also set at 30m barretts. So no difference is there
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You only have both by the time you've gone 400m, in the case of 08R at least. You think it's acceptable to be charging off for quarter of a mile without relevant RVRs AND lighting when you can only see 90m? And you can't tell me you can see the correct lights through 400m of fog either, how'd you know they're even working?!
Barrett's aren't centerline lights though are they?
Barrett's aren't centerline lights though are they?
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Well even if you do your strange taxi how do you know there working at the midpoint or stop end ?
barretts are an acceptable means of establishing a 90 m visual segment. You need to see 3 of them. There lights just like your centre line lights. Used for runway navigation. Are you aware of the famous cases of aircraft lining up on the runway edge lights thinking they were the centre lights. Never happened when visual with the approach/touchdown lights. You stick to your legal minimum philosophy and I'll stick to mine.
and when did I say you you could go without relevant RVR's
barretts are an acceptable means of establishing a 90 m visual segment. You need to see 3 of them. There lights just like your centre line lights. Used for runway navigation. Are you aware of the famous cases of aircraft lining up on the runway edge lights thinking they were the centre lights. Never happened when visual with the approach/touchdown lights. You stick to your legal minimum philosophy and I'll stick to mine.
and when did I say you you could go without relevant RVR's
Last edited by 8che; 2nd Nov 2013 at 02:21.
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I think it's safe to assume that if you can see that the lights are working then they're working.
Yes you can measure 90m with Barrett's but they still don't meet the 15m spacing requirement do they?
Where are the the RVRs reported? TDZ, MID, STOPEND. Wheres your RVR report for the displaced threshold?
Yes you can measure 90m with Barrett's but they still don't meet the 15m spacing requirement do they?
and when did I say you you could go without relevant RVR's
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Are you for real ?
How is 3 x 30 different to 6 x 15. Either you have 90m or you don't.
Touchdown RVR is catered for by the specific LVP holding points approved by the authority for LVP departures irrespective of displaced threshold. If that threshold was to be a problem the affected holding point wouldn't have been approved for runway line up in the first place.
How is 3 x 30 different to 6 x 15. Either you have 90m or you don't.
Touchdown RVR is catered for by the specific LVP holding points approved by the authority for LVP departures irrespective of displaced threshold. If that threshold was to be a problem the affected holding point wouldn't have been approved for runway line up in the first place.
Last edited by 8che; 2nd Nov 2013 at 02:36.
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Get off the 90m thing will you. I don't care how you work it out. But you need that AND 15m centerline lights. Look at the damn requirements. You can't just ignore some of them.
Specific LVP holding points are for ILS protection. They are not a suggestion of where you should depart from.
So you've still got an unassessed section of runway, no relevant RVR and you are not meeting the lighting requirements for a LVTO. Yet you're still going are you?
Specific LVP holding points are for ILS protection. They are not a suggestion of where you should depart from.
So you've still got an unassessed section of runway, no relevant RVR and you are not meeting the lighting requirements for a LVTO. Yet you're still going are you?
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I had the same question asked to me in an intvu
No where is it mentioned if it is allowed or it is not allowed.
However all LVP documents mention standard taxi routes to take for Arr as well as DEP
VIDP has LVP for 4 Months starting DEC to FEB.
If one happens to see the jepps for it Rwy29 is equipd for LVP and the taxi takes you to Z2 . Which happens to be an intersection. It is the standard taxi taken/Given/Accepted to one and all DOM/INTL/GA op's
Rwy 29 has a 3k ft displaced thrsld.
No where is it mentioned if it is allowed or it is not allowed.
However all LVP documents mention standard taxi routes to take for Arr as well as DEP
VIDP has LVP for 4 Months starting DEC to FEB.
If one happens to see the jepps for it Rwy29 is equipd for LVP and the taxi takes you to Z2 . Which happens to be an intersection. It is the standard taxi taken/Given/Accepted to one and all DOM/INTL/GA op's
Rwy 29 has a 3k ft displaced thrsld.
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Well Bucks this Spandex character wants to taxi all the way down that 3000ft displaced threshold until he sees his 15 M centre line light. Therefore having no runway left to take off on !
Interview failed for him.
LVP holding points are most certainly designed for line up ground operations as well as arrivals with strict line up lighting system for that too. Spandex you don't have the first clue what you are talking about and are staring to embarrass yourself.
Interview failed for him.
LVP holding points are most certainly designed for line up ground operations as well as arrivals with strict line up lighting system for that too. Spandex you don't have the first clue what you are talking about and are staring to embarrass yourself.
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Read what he wrote 8. You don't get to line up at the beginning of the runway so no need to taxy all the way down the 3000' displacement. Why is there no runway left? Is the runway only 3000' long? Nope, it's 12,500'. You've forgotten your lesson about performance haven't you.
Hold points are for ILS protection. They are where you enter the runway from, if you don't satisfy all the requirements for LVTO you can't depart. End of story.
Still, if you want to depart without relevant RVRs AND lighting then your choice. Wrong, but your choice.
Hold points are for ILS protection. They are where you enter the runway from, if you don't satisfy all the requirements for LVTO you can't depart. End of story.
Still, if you want to depart without relevant RVRs AND lighting then your choice. Wrong, but your choice.
This comes around every now and then in our airline, usually when the AWOPS part of the sim ends up at LGW. I have canvassed the opinions of other line pilots, trainers and standards guys: the main consensus seems to be that you could *interpret* the rules (as there is no statement as such) to mean you have to taxi forward until you get to an area of 15m lighting but in reality it would be a pointless thing to do, as you've already assessed the visibility as being adequate from where you're starting from, otherwise you wouldn't be taking off. Most of the TREs regard it as an interesting discussion point, rather than a pass/fail item. Practicality is the word here.
Interestingly, I've just looked at the NATS documentation for LGW and it seems like the whole of the runway is now 15m spacing - any LGW regulars able to confirm/refute that? ATC certainly expect you to be able to use M/M3 in LVPs...
Interestingly, I've just looked at the NATS documentation for LGW and it seems like the whole of the runway is now 15m spacing - any LGW regulars able to confirm/refute that? ATC certainly expect you to be able to use M/M3 in LVPs...
