A320 DC ESS BUS FAULT after takeoff, would you return?

[Natstrackalpha]

ECAM surprise - you are my hero.

787 you are naturally horrid! Referring of course to your comments about me smoking fish over a camp fire, thats silly.

whybe . . there talks a true pilot . . .


Quote:
Ecam S try a combined AC and DC ESS fault next time you're
in the box. This exercise truly sorts out the men from the boys
with a fervent hope by all participants afterwards it'll never ever
happen in real life...... Is that the one where there is no solution but you still go through all the hoops? - and land of course.

[mikedreamer787]

Is that the one where there is no solution but you
still go through all the hoops? - and land of course.

Do it yourself in the box Natstrack and see for yourself.
Lose AC ESS first then have DC ESS die after clearing
up ECAM Status. Hint - have a very cluey FO sitting in
the right seat too. Believe me you'll really need one!

And afterwards you'll pray that it never happens for real!

[Natstrackalpha]

I hear ya 787 and I will do so, not bin there yet!

We have got the bat and rat though . . . ?
would this little ex be akin to dual genny fail? Nope, because the AC ESS and DC Ess would be powered by the RAT through the EMRG . . . .generator(the blu hyd one)

[mikedreamer787]

Yep you've got your bat, rat and 3 AC gennys.
Got all your buses except AC ESS, DC ESS
and the sheds.

Have fun!

[Natstrackalpha]

thread drift from DC to AC Ess fail

787

Hi, so far, I`ve got no:-
pax oxy
F/O PFD
Capt PFD
Capt ND
>
DC out
FCU 1
Wing AI
SFFc 1
FD
AP
A/T
Terrain
GPWS
Transponder? . . Here`s a thing, if we have no AC Essential do we have sidestick . . ? If not then are we landing Mech back up? If things don`t switch, then, we have to gravity lower the gear as that won`t work either, nor will we get it back up again once down.
>This is different to a dual genny fail or dual engine fail as at least in these two failures the busses are there for when you get the RAT and/or APU fired up (the latter assuming fuel).
No Rev, in fact, no anything that needs a switch on the AC system.
>
Would the pumps work . . ? Tanks, gravity feed the fuel then . . .
No RAD Alt . . .?

Is there a book somewhere listing all the services which are provided by the AC Essential?
DC Essential too.
>
however, depite the Essential being fried, I notice there are still one or two things which ar AC powered that can work - if they do not go through the AC Essential Bus. for example you have bat (for a small time) which through TRs can give you AC. I MEAN THROUGH THE STATIC INVERTOR CAN GIVE YOU AC (picky City)
>
Also if you still have fuel in the Centre Tank, I assume it stays there?
Realizing I will get all the books in class - I am still a bit sad that I did not pick up fried AC Essentail + DC Essential on the bukshi CBT.

"Good evening - can I help you"
`Yes, I`ll have the Fried Essentail` ` . . . and I`ll have the DC Essentail Bus, does that come with rat, bats and hydraulics . . .?`

[mikedreamer787]

Your research in fairly close to the money Natstrack but I
again recommend this particular form of self abuse in the
sim. You can live without FD A/T EGPWS etc - its that
ECAM (and trying to read it) that's gonna cause all your
hair to fall out. Keeping the sky above and ground below
is the easy part - you still got your SBY ADI/full ISIS.....

Or have you?
.
.
.
.
Sorry - just messin' with yer head!

No point in pulling out the RAT - what the hell is it gonna
do except supply live electrons to dead buses...or does it
also supply something else?
.
.
.
.
Nah...just messin' with your head again!

Point is you still have all services off your other buses and
that's what you'll be using to the fullest. Do not forget the
new QRH format for runway length etc does not take into
account multiple failures anymore (remember the asterisk
and non-asterisk combos?) so its an arm-wrestling match
with the books and why I recommended you have a very
cluey FO. You'll be too busy flying the thing and trying to
work out how you'll get back down through the murk to
terra firma in one piece.

Is there a book somewhere listing all the services which
is provded by the AC Essential? DC Essential too.

Not that I know of. I went through the back of each system
chapter in Vol 1 for its Essential source and wrote them all
down (I had done this for each aircraft type since my DC9
days). After losing both ESS buses what you're left with is
split into 3 categories - not much, very little, bugger all.

Good luck. Let me know how it goes.

[Natstrackalpha]

Thank you so much!

I will!

And, thank you for your time and input/ hopefully its on the FCOM when I get it - (I lost the AOM! can you believe that . . ?)

Thanks again.

[Natstrackalpha]

Thanks 787
and thanks ECAM.

[compressor stall]

that's what you'll be using to the fullest. Do not forget the
new QRH format for runway length etc does not take into
account multiple failures anymore

Why does your landing distance increase with an AC ESS failure?

[Natstrackalpha]

@ compressor stall

Well, it could be that we have no
anti-skid,
no autobrake,



still learning . . not sure about spoilers, unless. . . no, maybe no spoilers . . . either . . .

- anyway,
no reverse thrust, that`ll do it too
. . . .oooh, no nz wheel steering, (so forget turning off before the end . . . ) - plop.


The fact we came gently in on the approach with no sidestick, possibly no FCU - that makes any sense, or does anything will have FMA though if you have PFD that is.
pitch with Man Trim
L&R with rudder.
manual thrust. . . . . who needs a long runway anyway? . . . and really good batteries. . . . We might have manual braking . . . , yes, I`ll go for Manual braking at 1,000 psi so watch it especially with no anti-skid.
Just fly it like a normal aeroplane with the rudder and the trim wheel and the manual thrust, maybe - I can`t wait - it`ll be my Christmas present, beats Lego!

[compressor stall]

There's nothing in an AC ESS BUS FAULT (or SHED) that will increase your landing distance.

PS. I got lost in your desultory ramblings after line 3.

[Natstrackalpha]

So buy yourself a map then!

[compressor stall]

DC ESS and AC ESS

So the skipper loses his screens and the ecam screens too.

CM2 flies, manual thrust. Can still shoot ILS with FD.

Audio switching to 3. Run the ecam on the CM2 ND when he doesn't need the map.

Direct law when gear down.

Not a nice day, but was expecting worse?

[sonicbum]

Originally Posted by compressor stall

So the skipper loses his screens and the ecam screens too.

CM2 flies, manual thrust. Can still shoot ILS with FD.

Audio switching to 3. Run the ecam on the CM2 ND when he doesn't need the map.

Direct law when gear down.

Not a nice day, but was expecting worse?

DC ESS BUS FAULT

[compressor stall]

Yes.. It was. And the AC ESS.

[Citation2]

You are going too far , there is no "IF" scenarios , otherwise you will never take off. What if you loose both engines on take off ? Or both sidesticks and both engines?

DC ESS BUS is clear and straightforward and does not need to be over excited.
The aircraft is perfectly flyable , you still have power on both engines , automation is available (except A/TH who cares ?)

You are still RVSM capable and can communicate . No Alternate no direct law.
You can still still enjoy your meal on your your tray table once ecam is completed .

Why would you like to aggravate the situation when the manufacturer/ Airbus does not say Land as soon as possible?

If I took off from home base , I would consider a come back , consulting MCC as not to ground an aircraft at destination .
In-flight coming back to destination ? There is a fuel penalty factor to consider , Weather checked? ( cat 2 in DC Ess) and landing distance permitting I would continue the flight , unless you are based in Skiathos.

No there is no what if AC ESS fails next , and then I have a depressurisation with Cabin oxygen mask not working along with DC ESS. IF and IF and IF ... If you stayed at home or came late at work maybe they would change the aircraft and you would not have a DC ESS.

[Metro man]

The FBW Airbus is heavily dependent on electrics and hydraulics. A steam driven airliner can continue to fly with control cables, the Bus can't that's why there is a high level of redundancy built in.

Once things are degraded to that extent I'd be using the remaining capability to get back on the ground as soon as practical, not necessarily back to my point of departure if the conditions were marginal, continuing to destination in good weather with maintenance available on arrival is a suitable option. I wouldn't be overflying too many major airports on my way to a small outstation though.

[FlightDetent]

FLY_INDIGO asked if we would return. One of the problems with answering is, that indeed there are airports to which we would not return even being on fire. The decision process is somewhat complex and give widely varied results.

The core question seems to be, how do we perceive the urgency of DC ESS fault. As a qualified pilot with experience
- I have no idea what really happened in the E&E bay
- I have insufficient information and no skills to run technical risk assesment of the power grid's state
- I have no idea what is the next weakest link keeping me airborne in a controlled manner

People who built the aircraft and actually do understand the three items above, decided it is good to fly with no time constraints. But they are not sitting in it, true.

For me:
1. Aviate, navigate, communicate, and manage systems, in that order.
2. Involve other people (resouces), carefully listen to what challenges the situation brings to them.
3. Take the action with most margins which satisfies most of their concerns.

Having said all that, I personally would really like to be at gate within 60 minutes. Fortunately my area of OPS provides plenty options to do so.

regards,
FD.

[PENKO]

Metroman, I'll leave the decision to divert or not to you. But the plane is perfectly flyable. There is no need to get panicky re 'The FBW Airbus is heavily dependent on electrics and hydraulics. A steam driven airliner can continue to fly with control cables, the Bus can't that's why there is a high level of redundancy built in.'

Flight controlwhise you still have three (yes, three) hydraulic systems, four sets of spoilers, elevators, stabilizers, rudders, ailerons...all with full redundancy.
There is nothing in the list of inop systems that raises my heartbeat.