Bagram 747 CG shift with increased fuel
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Whats the fuel burn for a 747-400F per hour? Why reduce the max payload when fuel is available at QOX? I didnt mention conspiracy, I wouldnt have flown up north, throwing in an extra leg in this area, approach and departure in massive terrain, if I could get fuel uplifted at an intermediate stop.
Doesnt make sense financially either, flying somewhere out the way "to pick up fuel", when you can pick it up from where you are. Standard routing has got nothing to do with it. You dont fly legs you dont have to, unless you want to go bust. I might not have flown for the USAF, but I know you couldnt slip a 1 dollar note between the arse cheeks of the AMC fuel budget holder at the moment.
Doesnt make sense financially either, flying somewhere out the way "to pick up fuel", when you can pick it up from where you are. Standard routing has got nothing to do with it. You dont fly legs you dont have to, unless you want to go bust. I might not have flown for the USAF, but I know you couldnt slip a 1 dollar note between the arse cheeks of the AMC fuel budget holder at the moment.
Last edited by VinRouge; 27th May 2013 at 02:48.
Whats the fuel burn for a 747-400F per hour?
Just a FWIW .... here's a photo of the rear of a 747 freighter.
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Originally Posted by pattern_is_full
Well, the white halo around the wings and fuselage doesn't belong there either. (Unless they encountered St. Elmo's Fire.)
Digital JPEG and video compression and sharpening can cause all kinds of shapes and artifacts to be added to an image.
Heck, there is a "notch" in the lower fuselage just ahead of the wings - is that "likely evidence" that the hull was cracked and the cockpit was about to fall off? There's another "notch" on the top of the fuselage just ahead of the Vstab. Maybe an MRAP went out the ceiling? (Sarcasm alert!)
I'm just saying, as a professional image editor (among other things) that there are no blobs (digital imaging artifacts) on the aft lower fuselage that aren't replicated all over this image. And they are indicators of precisely - nothing.
Digital JPEG and video compression and sharpening can cause all kinds of shapes and artifacts to be added to an image.
Heck, there is a "notch" in the lower fuselage just ahead of the wings - is that "likely evidence" that the hull was cracked and the cockpit was about to fall off? There's another "notch" on the top of the fuselage just ahead of the Vstab. Maybe an MRAP went out the ceiling? (Sarcasm alert!)
I'm just saying, as a professional image editor (among other things) that there are no blobs (digital imaging artifacts) on the aft lower fuselage that aren't replicated all over this image. And they are indicators of precisely - nothing.
This is not JPEG compression causing this effect, because it exists before the image was converted to a JPEG. I will agree that there is a significant likelihood that video processing within the camera has created some of the observed effects, but that does not mean that the entire picture is invald, it just needs interpreting.
The “notch” in the lower fuselage ahead of the wings appears to relate to the nose landing gear becoming visible. The “notch” on the top of the fuselage that you believe you observed is between two other unexplained bumps on the upper port quarter of the aft fuselage. You may even be correct in your sarcastic thought that an MRAP ruptured the overhead.
As one who has processed digital images for over a decade to produce artwork, I have learned that the boundary area of a digital feature contains much subtle information. I would not be so quick to throw the whole image in the dustbin.
Features are in the photo for a reason. You are free to discount or to contemplate what you see.
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The photo clearly shows the Flight/Voice Recorder rack, although in the case of 744F's, it may be boxed in with lightweight panelling. The 744F also has flat ceiling panels.
In the photos, the control cables can also be clearly seen (directly overhead) going through the aft pressure bulkhead. As well as weight and balance anomalies, deformation of the bulkhead may also lead to control issues.
In the photos, the control cables can also be clearly seen (directly overhead) going through the aft pressure bulkhead. As well as weight and balance anomalies, deformation of the bulkhead may also lead to control issues.
Last edited by NSEU; 27th May 2013 at 07:26.
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The thing is, none of us were there. We don't really know what the availability of fuel was--or cost. The investigation is not complete. And I agree that all the video interpretation so far is approaching the absurd.
The only thing obvious to me is a complete loss of control shortly after becoming airborne, followed by a low altitude stall and impact.
The video evidence of this accident, like the Sept 11 attack on the WTC and Pentagon seems to encourage more speculation than usual.
I appreciate some speculation in order to learn some brief lessons, but this is too much now. A load shift seems likely. Check your loads before departing. Always tell your loved ones "I love you" before you leave.
What else is there to learn at this point? Not much.
Current 744 FO.
The only thing obvious to me is a complete loss of control shortly after becoming airborne, followed by a low altitude stall and impact.
The video evidence of this accident, like the Sept 11 attack on the WTC and Pentagon seems to encourage more speculation than usual.
I appreciate some speculation in order to learn some brief lessons, but this is too much now. A load shift seems likely. Check your loads before departing. Always tell your loved ones "I love you" before you leave.
What else is there to learn at this point? Not much.
Current 744 FO.
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The fuel costs in Bastion are obscenely expensive.
I have personally fueled up in Bagram, went to Bastion to pick up stuff and go on from there. I can understand why they went to Bagram for the fuel.
I have personally fueled up in Bagram, went to Bastion to pick up stuff and go on from there. I can understand why they went to Bagram for the fuel.
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FAA Safety Alert
Yup. I noticed. Here it is...
FAA ISSUES GUIDANCE ON HEAVY VEHICLE CARGO SAFETY
On May 17, 2013, the FAA issued Safety Alert for Operators (SAFO) 13005 regarding the transportation of heavy vehicle special cargo loads. The SAFO reminds air carriers of current FAA policy and guidance concerning weight-and-balance control procedures, cargo-loading procedures, loading schedules, and instructions as outlined in FAA Advisory Circular (AC) 120-85, Air Cargo Operations. Flight crewmembers engaged in transportation of heavy vehicle special cargo loads are encouraged to review these documents.
FAA ISSUES GUIDANCE ON HEAVY VEHICLE CARGO SAFETY
On May 17, 2013, the FAA issued Safety Alert for Operators (SAFO) 13005 regarding the transportation of heavy vehicle special cargo loads. The SAFO reminds air carriers of current FAA policy and guidance concerning weight-and-balance control procedures, cargo-loading procedures, loading schedules, and instructions as outlined in FAA Advisory Circular (AC) 120-85, Air Cargo Operations. Flight crewmembers engaged in transportation of heavy vehicle special cargo loads are encouraged to review these documents.
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Apr. 30th NTSB .... NTSB Senior Air Safety Investigator Tim LeBaron will be the U.S. accredited representative. ...
.... The Afghanistan Ministry of Transportation ..... will be the sole source of information regarding the investigation. ...
Apr. 30th MungoP ... Looking down on the impact signature .... it could be seen that the cargo included at least 6 MRAPS ....
Apr. 30th B-HKD ... You can fit 6 MRAPs on a -400BDSF with clever use of available floor space. Some operators will load 5 others 6.
May 2nd janeczku ... In the unlikely case that an Afghan investigator should show up at the gates of Bagram airbase ...
May 2nd Desert .... If reports are true, the Afghans have stated they will not investigate. ....
May 10th Dep Chief PPRuNe Pilot ..... Thread closed until the preliminary comes out in a few days. ....
May 14th wrecker ... The CVR/FDR on the accident aircraft stopped working on rotation; engine/fuselage/tail parts were located on the runway. A total of (7) MRAP armored vehicles were being carried as cargo. ....
May 17th FAA SAFO 13005
May 23rd DownIn3Green .... The investigation will give the answers soon enough...
.... The Afghanistan Ministry of Transportation ..... will be the sole source of information regarding the investigation. ...
Apr. 30th MungoP ... Looking down on the impact signature .... it could be seen that the cargo included at least 6 MRAPS ....
Apr. 30th B-HKD ... You can fit 6 MRAPs on a -400BDSF with clever use of available floor space. Some operators will load 5 others 6.
May 2nd janeczku ... In the unlikely case that an Afghan investigator should show up at the gates of Bagram airbase ...
May 2nd Desert .... If reports are true, the Afghans have stated they will not investigate. ....
May 10th Dep Chief PPRuNe Pilot ..... Thread closed until the preliminary comes out in a few days. ....
May 14th wrecker ... The CVR/FDR on the accident aircraft stopped working on rotation; engine/fuselage/tail parts were located on the runway. A total of (7) MRAP armored vehicles were being carried as cargo. ....
May 17th FAA SAFO 13005
May 23rd DownIn3Green .... The investigation will give the answers soon enough...
(1) When did the Afghan authorities last issue a report on an aircraft accident?
(2) In that case, how much time elapsed between the accident and the publication of the final report?
(3) Also in that case, was a preliminary report also issued, and if so, how much time elapsed between the accident and the publication of the preliminary report?
So far, no one has reported the existence of any report.
The Afghanistan Ministry of Transportation and Civil Aviation has a web-site, with one page devoted to Home --> Aviation --> Flight Safety at:
Branches
(also reproduced in a post below).
It lists only one Branch, for "Light Safety Operational and Technical Board Staff". Presumably "Light" is a typo for "Flight".
Listed by name are four pilots, two Flight Engineers, a Phd in "Aviation Avionics". and a total of twenty seven Inspectors under Flight Operations, Air Worthiness, and Licensing.
There is no Accident Investigation branch listed, nor any indication that the Ministry has ever issued an accident report.
I could not get the "Organization" button at the bottom of the page to provide any information.
The page does have a "Contact Us" tab so on the basis that if you don't ask you will not be told, I optimistically sent them an email nearly two weeks ago asking them if they were planning to issue an accident repot. No response so far.
The web-site also has on it a "Roadmap" and an "Action Plan", both of which have many objectives including, "Establish an aircraft accident incident investigation process". The status is listed as, "On-going". The "Action Plan" notes that, "In order to meet the mandate of Article 26 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, member nations must put in place appropriate legislation on aircraft accident investigation. The accident investigation authority will be required to determine the causes of an accident and to make safety recommendations. The responsibility for the implementation of safety recommendations will rest with the Civil Aviation Authority".
As of now it appears that the Ministry has the sole authority to report, but neither the means nor the intention to report, so that perhaps the best we can hope for is that the NTSB will provide a brief report for publication in Afghanistan, and that indirect information such as that from wrecker above and the concerns expressed by the FAA below will become available:
News: FAA concerned about potential safety impact of carrying and restraining heavy vehicle special cargo loads
QUESTIONS (the answers to which must be known to at least a few people).
(1) Did the markings and distribution of debris on the runway indicate a structural failure with a tail-strike, or without a strike?
(2) Was a radio call made, and if so, what exactly did it say?
(3) Is the report that there were 7 MRAPs on board correct, and if so, how was that achieved when opinion seems to be that 5 is a normal load and that 6 is "difficult"?
Both CNN and the American ABC are reporting the Afghan MoTaCA has held a press conference stating the crash was a result of a load shift. From what I could make of the reports, they have found broken cargo strap buckles.
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Thanks, MarkerInBound.
"NTSB to Investigate Cargo Plane Crash at US Base in Afghanistan."
World News - ABC News Radio
See 8th story down the page.
"NTSB to Investigate Cargo Plane Crash at US Base in Afghanistan."
World News - ABC News Radio
See 8th story down the page.
Last edited by PickyPerkins; 4th Jun 2013 at 16:34. Reason: correct link
An interesting point from the FAA release:
"Unsymmetrical tie-downs permit load distributions that may ultimately result in tie-down failure.
Such a failure would result from the different load-deflection rates of dissimilar materials or of identical materials of different length.
Any material subjected to a tension load will stretch. A longer length tie-down has more stretch potential than a shorter length tie-down. If two tie-downs of the same type and capacity are used to restrain a load in a given direction and one is longer than the other, the longer tie-down, with its greater stretch potential, will permit the shorter tie-down to assume the majority of any load that may develop.
If the shorter tie-down becomes overstressed and fails, the longer tie-down would then be subjected to the full load and it, too, would likely fail. Therefore, symmetrical tie-downs should be as close to the same length as possible."
If you had it rigged differently from that suggested method they point to, what could happen is ... you'd hear "snap/ snap /snap" as the sound of restraint failure in series as three tie-downs of different length gave way when each of them took most of the load three of them were supposed to share.
"Unsymmetrical tie-downs permit load distributions that may ultimately result in tie-down failure.
Such a failure would result from the different load-deflection rates of dissimilar materials or of identical materials of different length.
Any material subjected to a tension load will stretch. A longer length tie-down has more stretch potential than a shorter length tie-down. If two tie-downs of the same type and capacity are used to restrain a load in a given direction and one is longer than the other, the longer tie-down, with its greater stretch potential, will permit the shorter tie-down to assume the majority of any load that may develop.
If the shorter tie-down becomes overstressed and fails, the longer tie-down would then be subjected to the full load and it, too, would likely fail. Therefore, symmetrical tie-downs should be as close to the same length as possible."
If you had it rigged differently from that suggested method they point to, what could happen is ... you'd hear "snap/ snap /snap" as the sound of restraint failure in series as three tie-downs of different length gave way when each of them took most of the load three of them were supposed to share.
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Both CNN and the American ABC are reporting the Afghan MoTaCA has held a press conference stating the crash was a result of a load shift. From what I could make of the reports, they have found broken cargo strap buckles.
(I do believe it was a load shift)
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If two tie-downs of the same type and capacity are used to restrain a load in a given direction and one is longer than the other, the longer tie-down, with its greater stretch potential, will permit the shorter tie-down to assume the majority of any load that may develop.
The 744 freighter tie-downs I've seen have no strain gauges fitted to them, so tightening them all to the same value would not be possible. And as soon as the aircraft pitches or rolls, the forces on the tie-downs would also vary.
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I think
The advice re unsymmetrical mite downs is much more likely to refer to differing angles than lengths as they can have a large and direct effect on the load carrying ability, ie reaching breaking strain at relatively small loads.
The advice re unsymmetrical mite downs is much more likely to refer to differing angles than lengths as they can have a large and direct effect on the load carrying ability, ie reaching breaking strain at relatively small loads.
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OK, I can read and understand the SAFO. Does this mean that tie-down schemes have not followed the existing regulations or, is this supposed to be a new revelation? I cannot believe this was not regulated before?
One problem on oversight is, from someone in the FAA, that the FAA didn't have regulatory oversight or access in Afghanistan. DoD was the only oversight.
