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A320 Engine fire on take off training video question

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A320 Engine fire on take off training video question

Old 19th Apr 2013, 10:26
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A320 Engine fire on take off training video question

Hello,

I saw one from CBT. Captain put both throttles to TOGA after fire warning. At 400 checklist were performed engine secured. Is it usual practice? If that engine is still working like fuel leak on fire, oil leak, bleed air problem ect. selecting full power should make fire more intensive or maybe engine explosion?
I also assume A320 doesn't have engine fire memory item checklist.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 10:41
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A4

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Rule 1 - FLY THE AIRCRAFT.

Selection of TOGA is SOP for some operators - yes you will be adding fuel to the fire - but the increased performance will get you to 400' AGL quicker to allow actioning of ECAM in a failure case - with fire the engine is still producing thrust so performance is less of an issue compared to EFATO.

Provided the aircraft is under control (Trimmed, AP in, HDG/EOSID established) it is permissible to commence ECAM <400' but only in exceptional circumstances - FIRE is a good example!

The fire is dealt with by ECAM, not from memory actions. It is a controlled and deliberate sequence requiring good crew cooperation - because you DON'T want to get it wrong!

A4
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 11:02
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When taking off, any significant engine malfunction triggering a warning should be announced by the PNF without stating the engine number!

Only when the PF commands the PNF to read the ECAM, shall he specify which engine has the problem, and any action on that engine should only be performed after both pilots have confirmed that it is indeed the correct (malfunctioning) engine!
This procedure has been established to protect flight deck crews from shutting down the wrong engine in their panic.

Therefor, the pilot on that video responded correctly although in many cases the aircraft will be able to climb safely without selecting TOGA thrust.

Last edited by sierra_sotiropoulos; 19th Apr 2013 at 11:04.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 15:23
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the following questions might be a bit "off-topic"...

i'm just wondering does the PNF need the command from PF before carrying out the procedures and checklists when facing abnormal situation?

For example engine failure at V1, can the PNF declare emergency and say mayday right away? or he has to just wait until the PF order?
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 15:33
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The actions in case of emergency are thoroughly briefed before take off.
Usually the PNF handles communications but, after an engine failure at take off at 400 ft the PF assumes controls and communications and the PNF performs ECAM action.
The command at 400 ft by the PF is "I have controls and communications, ECAM actions!"
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Old 20th Apr 2013, 09:23
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A320 Engine fire on take off training video question

What about just saying 'ECAM actions', this implies abnormal tasksharing as per FCOM/QRH. I.e. pf with the radios etc

No problems with people saying 'my radios' etc.. But 'my controls' seems a bit superfluous and a waste of breath..

A320 tre
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Old 20th Apr 2013, 11:13
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Airbus has changed the call out. In abnormal situation when PF says" I have controls, it also means I have communications".

Last edited by vilas; 20th Apr 2013 at 11:14.
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Old 20th Apr 2013, 11:17
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Ozy,

It's not a prerequisite but are you trying to tell me that YOUR workload will be less if you continue to handfly? Once you have the aircraft "under control" i.e. trimmed, climbing at V2, why would you not want to let the AP take the strain? It will also increase your capacity to then manage the failure with your FO/Capt. Is it a macho thing? Must wrestle the stricken aircraft into the sky?

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Old 20th Apr 2013, 11:19
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Please could you provide an Airbus reference for that Vilas?

Thanks.

A4, she or he was being a pedant.

Last edited by WhyByFlier; 20th Apr 2013 at 11:21.
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Old 20th Apr 2013, 12:20
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@WhyByFlier

QRH Gen.01

regards
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Old 20th Apr 2013, 13:00
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Thank you BravoTango.

Am I being thick or is this not in any easyJet documents? It's defo not in our QRH.

Last edited by WhyByFlier; 20th Apr 2013 at 13:00.
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Old 20th Apr 2013, 15:29
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WhyByFlyer
In the instructer briefing guide ECAM management it mentions "As he announces ECAM ACTIONS", the PF is in charge of communications, until all the ECAM actions have been completed. So you say " I have controls" and order ECAM ACTIONS. However I have experienced that some Airlines still follow old procedure.

Last edited by vilas; 20th Apr 2013 at 15:31.
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Old 20th Apr 2013, 18:21
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A320 FCTM AO-020 P 6/18:

The use of the autopilot is STRONGLY recommended. Following an engine failure, the rudder should be trimmed out prior to autopilot engagement.
Once AP is engaged, the rudder trim is managed through the AP and, hence, manual rudder trim command, including reset, is inhibited.
I.e. put the AP in, we can all fly but it frees up capacity.

Last edited by WhyByFlier; 20th Apr 2013 at 18:25.
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Old 20th Apr 2013, 19:29
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Putting in the AP allows the flying and nav side to be monitored, the decision making and threat and error management side to be considered as a crew and for briefings to take place. The AP can fly. Best use of equipment. The sim is the place to show the company your flying capacity in EFATOs.

There are many ways to fly and handle an Airbus!

Last edited by WhyByFlier; 20th Apr 2013 at 19:33.
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Old 20th Apr 2013, 20:12
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Something about a superior pilot uses their superior judgement to avoid etc etc springs to mind.

Oz, you have the requisite skill level to fly an EFATO minus the automatics, congrats. Now work on gaining the superior judgement.
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Old 21st Apr 2013, 11:05
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No doubt any pilot should have the skill to manage EFATO without auto pilot. It is not a great skill in A320. Those who flew any non FBW airliner would know it. But you don't hone your skills in actual abnormal situation. It is like practicing raw data ILS in poor visbility. In abnormal situation you must use optimum automation. A survey of training in sim has revealed that with modernisation many regulatory manuevres are handled well by pilots, therefore they are now evolving EBT i.e. evidence based training where the routine exercises would be replaced with more contemporary mauevres.

Last edited by vilas; 21st Apr 2013 at 11:11.
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Old 21st Apr 2013, 11:23
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Hi Oz,

Have you read the Kegworth accident report?
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_502831.pdf

2.1.1.1 Fault diagnosis:
"The commander said that he gained from the engine instruments no clear indication of where the trouble lay. He had, however, disengaged the autopilot 8 seconds after the first compressor surge and most of his attention thereafter would probably have been on the handling of the aircraft and the flight instruments"

Why increase your workload at the expense of fault diagnosis?
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Old 21st Apr 2013, 12:11
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Yep we all should be able to fly the ship, but for gods sake let the AUTOPILOT do the work if its available. To do otherwise isn't just plain dumb it's negligent and wouldn't be viewed too positively by the accident investigators!!

I suppose during a incapacitation you'd still leave the A/P off too.

Wow a real hero.

Last edited by nitpicker330; 21st Apr 2013 at 12:13.
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Old 21st Apr 2013, 12:42
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Oz, I was being somewhat sarcastic in congratulating you on your flying skills, sorry if that was a touch unclear.

As I spent a good deal of my career hand flying without a flight director or auto pilot available I am very confident in my ability to hand fly if called upon to do so. While it may be worth a practise occasionally an EFATO is not the time to prove to one and all what a hot shot stick and rudder man you are. It's the time to free up capacity for you both to do your jobs, the penalties for getting the drills wrong are severe.

Being a good pilot is about so much more than the ability to hand fly (although that is essential), you'd do we'll to bear that in mind.
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Old 21st Apr 2013, 19:56
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Human Factors Hazardous Attitudes

I see two of five here:

1. Macho, and

2. Anti-authority.
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