A320 Engine fire on take off training video question
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Joined: Jul 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: UK
I think you've missed the point here Ozy. No one is denying that the maintenance of manual flying skills is highly prudent and any Professional pilot should indeed maintain those skills. What you seem to be advocating is that in a non-normal, high workload situation the PF should continue to hand fly the aircraft. That, I'm afraid, is cobblers.
I don't see how you can deny that your capacity will be increased if the AP is flying the aircraft. "Fault diagnosis can wait......" within reason - burning engine? THR LVRS/ENG MASTERS/FIRE PB's - do they not deserve/require your utmost attention as opposed to ensuring you're not exceeding the bank angle on the EOSID because you've elected to hand fly? Modern AP's do a very good job of flying the aircraft. Likewise, FMGC's with "pop-up" EOSIDS are designed to alleviate pilot workload - BUT IT IS INCUMBENT ON THE CREW UNDERSTANDING HOW TO USE IT!
If my family was in the back of your aircraft and you suffered an EFATO, I would expect you to utilise all the tools made available to you by the manufacturer to facilitate a safe and expeditious resolution to the issue. I would not expect you to load up your PNF in some ill conceived display of your well practiced manual flying skills. We practice skills for when we have to, not because we want to.
A4
I don't see how you can deny that your capacity will be increased if the AP is flying the aircraft. "Fault diagnosis can wait......" within reason - burning engine? THR LVRS/ENG MASTERS/FIRE PB's - do they not deserve/require your utmost attention as opposed to ensuring you're not exceeding the bank angle on the EOSID because you've elected to hand fly? Modern AP's do a very good job of flying the aircraft. Likewise, FMGC's with "pop-up" EOSIDS are designed to alleviate pilot workload - BUT IT IS INCUMBENT ON THE CREW UNDERSTANDING HOW TO USE IT!
If my family was in the back of your aircraft and you suffered an EFATO, I would expect you to utilise all the tools made available to you by the manufacturer to facilitate a safe and expeditious resolution to the issue. I would not expect you to load up your PNF in some ill conceived display of your well practiced manual flying skills. We practice skills for when we have to, not because we want to.
A4
Last edited by A4; 21st April 2013 at 20:24.
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From: Over the Moon
Oz
You could equally say that if you fail to exercise sound judgement your ability to hand fly counts for precisely f*#k all, as you so delicately put it.
It is comforting to know that I can hand fly if I have to but it's also comforting to know that all I have to do is trim the rudder and put the AP on and my capacity to monitor, manage and support my colleague and my crew has increased, those are all desirable things in an emergency.
You use the resources at hand to maximise the chances of a successfull outcome. Fair enough to consider and practise what to do if some of those resources are unavailable but that is a very different thing to deliberately ignoring them in the real case which would be rather foolish.
I also,suspect in the real case ( and in the sim if not previously agreed by your trainer) that a company would take a dim view of a decision not to use the AP if it was available to you.
You could equally say that if you fail to exercise sound judgement your ability to hand fly counts for precisely f*#k all, as you so delicately put it.
It is comforting to know that I can hand fly if I have to but it's also comforting to know that all I have to do is trim the rudder and put the AP on and my capacity to monitor, manage and support my colleague and my crew has increased, those are all desirable things in an emergency.
You use the resources at hand to maximise the chances of a successfull outcome. Fair enough to consider and practise what to do if some of those resources are unavailable but that is a very different thing to deliberately ignoring them in the real case which would be rather foolish.
I also,suspect in the real case ( and in the sim if not previously agreed by your trainer) that a company would take a dim view of a decision not to use the AP if it was available to you.
Joined: Oct 2009
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From: UK
Hi Oz,
We had to hand fly 707s because the AP couldn't cope, but look at the number of accidents caused by Pilot reduced SA - and we had 3 crew then.
Are you ambidextrous whilst practicing for Shrove Tuesday?
Besides, any competent pilot should have sufficient capacity to cope. Haven't you?
Are you ambidextrous whilst practicing for Shrove Tuesday?
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: UK
Ok, this will be my last input in this thread. I think it's has been interesting and beneficial. Basically, I think we're all singing from the same hymn sheet more or less. Some of the points that Ozy makes are valid - if we're sitting up front we should be able to hand fly the aircraft to the required standard. In the majority of cases regarding EFATO, then the automatics should be available and it would unquestionably reduce the PF's and the PNF's workload.
With a push on TEM (Threat and Error Management for those unfamiliar) use of automatics, where appropriate, is encouraged to facilitate Crew coop and workload management. Non-use of automatics, when fully available, resulting in incident/accident may well leave the CM1 in a difficult position careerwise or even legally......
Fly safe everyone.
Out.
A4
With a push on TEM (Threat and Error Management for those unfamiliar) use of automatics, where appropriate, is encouraged to facilitate Crew coop and workload management. Non-use of automatics, when fully available, resulting in incident/accident may well leave the CM1 in a difficult position careerwise or even legally......
Fly safe everyone.
Out.
A4
Joined: Nov 1999
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From: UK
Must wrestle the stricken aircraft into the sky?
Nowadays, thanks to years of research and development, modern automatics are extremely good and reliable. Even when manually flown, the airframes are much easier to fly, and an EFATO on an Airbus simply requires; Keep it straight with rudder, (then hold the rudder there); Rotate to +10 degrees, (then leave the pitch alone); Trim the rudder; Engage autopilot; Deal with the emergency; Land the aircraft.
If both autopilots are not available, obviously one pilot will have to hand fly, and this WILL take most of that pilot's capacity away from dealing with the emergency. But they will still be able to confirm correct guarded switch, master switch and fire push button selections etc., and deal with basic communications to ATC.
A point to be borne in mind though is that if one pilot is hand flying, then the workload in an emergency of the pilot-not-flying goes up massively - probably by 100%, because s/he is having to be much more vigilant in monitoring the PF's hand flying, (for example bank angle), AS WELL as dealing with the ECAM, checklists, and landing distance calculations etc. etc. So while PF might think they have plenty of capacity to hand fly, they must remember that in doing so they are actually using some of PNF's capacity as well.
So PF might think they're Jack-the-lad and the poor dumb PNF is slow and behind the aircraft, without realising how much they have loaded up the PNF. They would do well to think very carefully before hand flying in an emergency unless there was no alternative.
U
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
As an aside, I was told of an engine failure in a well known Far East airline which was handled adequately and returned. Upon analysis, it was realised that the PF hand flew the whole thing, despite a perfectly good autopilot.
The reason given upon questioning this was that every sim check was a manually flown EO. When the real thing happened the PF did what he was repeatedly trained and in the stress of the moment didn't engage the AP as it was unfamiliar in a time of 'need'.
The reason given upon questioning this was that every sim check was a manually flown EO. When the real thing happened the PF did what he was repeatedly trained and in the stress of the moment didn't engage the AP as it was unfamiliar in a time of 'need'.
Joined: Apr 2013
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From: Civilization .
Guys, come on! The autopilot can fly with higher accuracy than an aviator. But its unable to decide. So, AP on, I have control and comms, ECAM ACTIONS, and let the pilots do what we can do that the AP cant. Decide and manage the situation.
Pronto.
Pronto.
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Wanderlust
WhyByFlyer and OPEN DES
Slight clarification about PF's call "I have controls". PF and PNF is decided before the flight. If at the moment of abnormality occurring if PF is in control, he only calls "ECAM ACTIONS" and it also means he has communications till ECAM is completed. If PNF was at controls then only first "I have controls" call by PF is required. This is confirmed by Airbus.
Slight clarification about PF's call "I have controls". PF and PNF is decided before the flight. If at the moment of abnormality occurring if PF is in control, he only calls "ECAM ACTIONS" and it also means he has communications till ECAM is completed. If PNF was at controls then only first "I have controls" call by PF is required. This is confirmed by Airbus.
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From: Not far from the edge of the Milky Way Galaxy in the Orion Arm.
you are not utilising all resources. CRM!
1/. AP pb push and sq radio fail
2/. Door unlatch
3/. Retreat to Galley
4/. sit down somewhere nice, and pour yourself a coffee.
5/. Note the time,
6/. If there are yummies in the Galley or indeed in the cabin . . ooohh la la!
7/. Stuff yourself stupid with food, chat to the birds.
8/. Keep an eye on the time, at 5 mins < TOD return to the flightdeck, explain to ATC that you have been having problems with the radio
9/. Descend at ToD
The bus is designed to be AP flown, steer it with the FCU if you must, but the higher the level of automatics the better, on the bus - this does not mean go to sleep - ha, ha, but the concept of flying a piece of electronic digital plastic and an aeroplane are like world`s apart, it is not an L1011 or a Hawker Hunter or even a B737 its an airbus.
By the way some bus pilots would prob have a hard time with the B737 and yet play the bus like a slot machine in Vegas.
If you can fly aeroplanes AND you learn how to fly a bus - you are a great pilot on the bus.
You cannot "fly" a bus. You can only operate it, with deft pilot knowledge hopefully in the background.
Use the AP thats what it is there for.
Practice Raw Data this and that, like some people pratice deep root canal work.
Seriously, practice flying it when its all messed up - because it sure as hell was not designed to be operated "flown" that way, you cannot "fly" a bus.
1/. AP pb push and sq radio fail
2/. Door unlatch
3/. Retreat to Galley
4/. sit down somewhere nice, and pour yourself a coffee.
5/. Note the time,
6/. If there are yummies in the Galley or indeed in the cabin . . ooohh la la!
7/. Stuff yourself stupid with food, chat to the birds.
8/. Keep an eye on the time, at 5 mins < TOD return to the flightdeck, explain to ATC that you have been having problems with the radio
9/. Descend at ToD
The bus is designed to be AP flown, steer it with the FCU if you must, but the higher the level of automatics the better, on the bus - this does not mean go to sleep - ha, ha, but the concept of flying a piece of electronic digital plastic and an aeroplane are like world`s apart, it is not an L1011 or a Hawker Hunter or even a B737 its an airbus.
By the way some bus pilots would prob have a hard time with the B737 and yet play the bus like a slot machine in Vegas.
If you can fly aeroplanes AND you learn how to fly a bus - you are a great pilot on the bus.
You cannot "fly" a bus. You can only operate it, with deft pilot knowledge hopefully in the background.
Use the AP thats what it is there for.
Practice Raw Data this and that, like some people pratice deep root canal work.
Seriously, practice flying it when its all messed up - because it sure as hell was not designed to be operated "flown" that way, you cannot "fly" a bus.
Last edited by Natstrackalpha; 29th April 2013 at 00:59.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 609
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From: Around the world.
Compressor stall: That is the exact same thing that happened in our company. The captain did a nice EFATO and return to land, all hand flown. When asked why he didn't use automatics, he stated that is what you always do in the sim, so it came naturally in the heat of the moment.
Our company has also found pilots are very unwilling to restart an engine that has run down, because it always catches fire or doesn't restart in the sim (depending on the instructors whim). An issue of negative training I suppose.
Our company has also found pilots are very unwilling to restart an engine that has run down, because it always catches fire or doesn't restart in the sim (depending on the instructors whim). An issue of negative training I suppose.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Joined: Jul 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: UK
I know I said I wouldn't return to this thread but regarding re-starting the engine........
Modern engines are SUPER reliable. They don't fail without reason (obviously
). Once it's failed, it's a known quantity i.e. you've lost a GEN, a BLEED and a HYD - all of which are usually backed up with redundancy. If you restart it then it's an unknown quantity - is it going to fail again on short final? Is it going to fail again only more spectacularly?
You may want to restart it to get the services but as propulsion unit - after it's "failed" I would treat it as unusable and get it on the ground pronto and hand it over to the engineers. If it restarts ok, are you then going to continue on to your destination 2,3 or 4 hours away?
A4
Modern engines are SUPER reliable. They don't fail without reason (obviously
). Once it's failed, it's a known quantity i.e. you've lost a GEN, a BLEED and a HYD - all of which are usually backed up with redundancy. If you restart it then it's an unknown quantity - is it going to fail again on short final? Is it going to fail again only more spectacularly? You may want to restart it to get the services but as propulsion unit - after it's "failed" I would treat it as unusable and get it on the ground pronto and hand it over to the engineers. If it restarts ok, are you then going to continue on to your destination 2,3 or 4 hours away?
A4
