How many sectors do you handfly?
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Just wondering if P-RNAV SID and STAR are also flown without FDs?
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Not an airliner pilot guys, just a normal GA guy but looking at it from my side I recently flew a 172 back from somewhere in **** weather getting tossed around in IMC at a whole FL50. I then flew a PAR which was a break off because some lost clown wandered across the approach, then had another go, broke out at minimums and plonked it down in pissing down rain and a xw gusting above a/c limits.. After a minute to chill after I shut down I walked into the club and asked 'How much would it cost to get a f****** autopilot fitted to that thing.'
Just saying.
And before someone says 'You should have stayed on the ground in the first place'...yeah, I know, but the weather man he tells lies and I don't have instant weather readouts or weather radars and all the other good **** you guys have. It was not an instance where my superior knowledge kept me out of a situation requiring the use of my superior skills...
Be thankful you have all the toys to play with. I know you are commercial pilots and a world away from what I do but it wasn't always like that. I take it you've all read 'Fate Is The Hunter'?
Just saying.
And before someone says 'You should have stayed on the ground in the first place'...yeah, I know, but the weather man he tells lies and I don't have instant weather readouts or weather radars and all the other good **** you guys have. It was not an instance where my superior knowledge kept me out of a situation requiring the use of my superior skills...
Be thankful you have all the toys to play with. I know you are commercial pilots and a world away from what I do but it wasn't always like that. I take it you've all read 'Fate Is The Hunter'?
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thing
I take it you are in europe?
anyway, I know of a case of a brand new NON instrument rated pilot with a great new piper turbo arrow...full autopilot and nav package, deluxe.
was flying back from oregon to california...at night...went into a towering cu/thunderhead/lightning.
plane broke apart
now, I'm not blaming the plane or the autopilot...but the autopilot may have had too much and the pilot (biological) may have over controlled the plane.
you have had a good experience...hang on to it and the confidence...then use wisdom to avoid the same situation.
AS to the real question, you should hand fly enough ''sectors" (here in the USA, we say LEGS) so that you can handle all situations without an autopilot.
I take it you are in europe?
anyway, I know of a case of a brand new NON instrument rated pilot with a great new piper turbo arrow...full autopilot and nav package, deluxe.
was flying back from oregon to california...at night...went into a towering cu/thunderhead/lightning.
plane broke apart
now, I'm not blaming the plane or the autopilot...but the autopilot may have had too much and the pilot (biological) may have over controlled the plane.
you have had a good experience...hang on to it and the confidence...then use wisdom to avoid the same situation.
AS to the real question, you should hand fly enough ''sectors" (here in the USA, we say LEGS) so that you can handle all situations without an autopilot.
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In UK flare pilot.
Mate of mine flies 74's for BA and I'm sure he hand flies every third approach, which for him is probably once a month. Don't know anything about BA but I got the impression it was company policy.
As for your Piper turbo pilot I find it worrying that SEP's are getting to the same level of sophistication as airliners. Guys go on courses to learn the ins and outs of Garmin 1000's etc. At the end of the day it's an SEP, keep your eyes out of the cockpit where they belong and fly the bloody aeroplane, it's not an Airbus. Having said that there have been the odd occassions where I would have welcomed a simple course hold autopilot, not because the a/c is getting ahead of me in foul weather but it just frees up a bit of capacity that you may need.
Don't know how old you are but do you remember when we all magically managed without mobile phones? Now if I get down the road and mrs thing has forgotten hers we have to go back for it. Same with tech, soon guys won't get into their Saratoga or whatever without a GPS or synthetic vision etc. They still crash. Mainly because the warm and safe feeling that all of this tech gives them removes them from the fact that they are flying two tons of metal at 150 kts through the air, relying on nothing more than physics and a single propellor and engine to keep them alive.
Mate of mine flies 74's for BA and I'm sure he hand flies every third approach, which for him is probably once a month. Don't know anything about BA but I got the impression it was company policy.
As for your Piper turbo pilot I find it worrying that SEP's are getting to the same level of sophistication as airliners. Guys go on courses to learn the ins and outs of Garmin 1000's etc. At the end of the day it's an SEP, keep your eyes out of the cockpit where they belong and fly the bloody aeroplane, it's not an Airbus. Having said that there have been the odd occassions where I would have welcomed a simple course hold autopilot, not because the a/c is getting ahead of me in foul weather but it just frees up a bit of capacity that you may need.
Don't know how old you are but do you remember when we all magically managed without mobile phones? Now if I get down the road and mrs thing has forgotten hers we have to go back for it. Same with tech, soon guys won't get into their Saratoga or whatever without a GPS or synthetic vision etc. They still crash. Mainly because the warm and safe feeling that all of this tech gives them removes them from the fact that they are flying two tons of metal at 150 kts through the air, relying on nothing more than physics and a single propellor and engine to keep them alive.
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hi thing
the piper accident happened about 30 years ago...still had an autopilot ;-)
I do agree, an autopilot to keep the wings level, couple an approach or to nav/heading and hold pitch if not altitude is nice
but, its like an escalator in a department store (what do you call an escalator in england?)...if you use it every day, you will forget how to use stairs.
I like having a mobile phone with me in case my modern car breaks down.
using an autopilot is a reward for hand flying alot~!
the piper accident happened about 30 years ago...still had an autopilot ;-)
I do agree, an autopilot to keep the wings level, couple an approach or to nav/heading and hold pitch if not altitude is nice
but, its like an escalator in a department store (what do you call an escalator in england?)...if you use it every day, you will forget how to use stairs.
I like having a mobile phone with me in case my modern car breaks down.
using an autopilot is a reward for hand flying alot~!
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We call an escalator an escalator..
However your elevator is actually a lift. I don't know, we gave you a perfectly good language and you have to screw it up..
However your elevator is actually a lift. I don't know, we gave you a perfectly good language and you have to screw it up..
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Careful there thing! The Americans actually speak a more perfect form of English than we British do! British English has been bastardised by much European influence!
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Careful there thing! The Americans actually speak a more perfect form of English than we British do! British English has been bastardised by much European influence!
My Dad God rest him used to make me laugh; he used to say 'We're off to Europe for a holiday.'
So your going from Europe to Europe then are you Dad? Bit like living in Idaho and saying you're going to America for a holiday...
.Flarepilot: We allow the French to do stuff like naming bits of things, keeps them busy.
I probably have a different attitude than a lot of people. I spent most of my last ten years as an A320 captain. I tried to use the auto pilot as much as possible except for landings. I usually turned it on about 10,000 and turned it off about 200 ft. About once a month I would hand fly and approach or of course visuals need to be hand flown. Besides the A320 I am type rated in all the Boeings from 707 to 777 except the 737 which I flew as FO for 2 years. About half of my time in a 30 plus year flying career was in non-glass airplanes with no autothrottle and often a marginal autopilot. I guess I just got lazy in my old age, but to tell the truth the A320 is so easy to fly that once a month was plenty of hand flying. The only plane as easy to fly as the A320 is the 777.
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Rick777
"but to tell the truth the A320 is so easy to fly that once a month was plenty of hand flying."
I have been trying to make the same point but perhaps it hurts the ego of some A320 pilots to accept. According to me anyone who needs four sectors everyday to keep hand flying profficiency in A320 is not a very talented pilot. It is good for him to fly four sectors but he cannot insist that those who don't are less professionals. Actually it is otherway round because they monitor many important aspects of flight other than mere manual flying.
"but to tell the truth the A320 is so easy to fly that once a month was plenty of hand flying."
I have been trying to make the same point but perhaps it hurts the ego of some A320 pilots to accept. According to me anyone who needs four sectors everyday to keep hand flying profficiency in A320 is not a very talented pilot. It is good for him to fly four sectors but he cannot insist that those who don't are less professionals. Actually it is otherway round because they monitor many important aspects of flight other than mere manual flying.
Check Airman, I see you are it the USA. I'm surprised that you don't know that prior to around 2007 or so there was no P2 rating in the US. I was a FO on the 737-300/500 for two years in 1990/91.
Considering that Airbus jets are flight path stable, loss of AT would seem to make it quite a handful to fly would any airbus pilots like to comment on that?
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Actually they are extremely easy to fly with A/T off, at least the A321 I flew for seven years. Provided the thrust changes are not too brusque, the aircraft will maintain its path, while any speed deviation is quickly spotted with the speed trend vector: if the trend vector points forward you pull the thrust levers back a little and viceversa. You simply set a flightpath with the side-stick and then control speed with the thrust levers. Really a sort of point-and-forget aircraft.
Almost too easy to handfly, and consequentially a handful when you go back to direct law (or a pre-777 Boeing or MD) because you are no longer used to monitoring attitude (and trimming) any longer! Or at least that was my experience.
Almost too easy to handfly, and consequentially a handful when you go back to direct law (or a pre-777 Boeing or MD) because you are no longer used to monitoring attitude (and trimming) any longer! Or at least that was my experience.