ATC asked us to intercept a 10 mile Final.
Quote from FlyingStone:
“Direct 10 miles final is standard procedure in certain parts of Africa - with all navaids at the airport being U/S”
That was where I overflew the presidential palace... Self-positioning using HDG select and the FMS info on the ND is child’s play, with the displayed track even compensating for the wind.
BUT... Just make sure your NAV ACCURACY is showing HIGH. In the 1980s, lack of DME updating for several hours prior to the approach meant the ND was based on IRS position (for newbies, that’s not good enough). In the 1990s, that all changed with the introduction of GPS updating.
So, to spell my message loud and clear: particularly in the Third World, make sure your GPS updating is working before relying on the ND for initial approaches.
“Direct 10 miles final is standard procedure in certain parts of Africa - with all navaids at the airport being U/S”
That was where I overflew the presidential palace... Self-positioning using HDG select and the FMS info on the ND is child’s play, with the displayed track even compensating for the wind.
BUT... Just make sure your NAV ACCURACY is showing HIGH. In the 1980s, lack of DME updating for several hours prior to the approach meant the ND was based on IRS position (for newbies, that’s not good enough). In the 1990s, that all changed with the introduction of GPS updating.
So, to spell my message loud and clear: particularly in the Third World, make sure your GPS updating is working before relying on the ND for initial approaches.
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Meatlover,
I'm not sure what type you fly, but to answer your question, I don't know of a perfectly accurate way to intercept the final at exactly 10.0nm.
The heat you're getting from most of the posters here is because your question seems a bit silly. If you wanted to know how to intercept at exactly 10nm, I suppose it's a valid question. However, if you're flying a modern jet (somewhere here it was assumed you're in an A320) and can't figure out how to join final at ~10nm, I'm afraid I'll have to agree with some here that you are far too dependent on automation.
I'm not sure what type you fly, but to answer your question, I don't know of a perfectly accurate way to intercept the final at exactly 10.0nm.
The heat you're getting from most of the posters here is because your question seems a bit silly. If you wanted to know how to intercept at exactly 10nm, I suppose it's a valid question. However, if you're flying a modern jet (somewhere here it was assumed you're in an A320) and can't figure out how to join final at ~10nm, I'm afraid I'll have to agree with some here that you are far too dependent on automation.
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Chris Scott:
Not to mention that the country be WGS84 compliant.
So, to spell my message loud and clear: particularly in the Third World, make sure your GPS updating is working before relying on the ND for initial approaches.
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so, you are in radar contact, just say: request vector to 10 mile final. and if he gets it wrong, its his fault...but always watch out for ATC errors that can put u into a mountain
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Cadet Murphy, are you serious??
And how would you do it if you didn't inserted it for whatever reason?
I normally precalculate a 10 mile final-fix for my destination (since ATC is more than likely to position you at 10 miles when giving radar vectors).
I do this via a spreadsheet on the iPad developed specifically for this PBD calculation, and then insert the waypoints in the FMS during preflight. I can always delete later or simply use as reference.
I do this via a spreadsheet on the iPad developed specifically for this PBD calculation, and then insert the waypoints in the FMS during preflight. I can always delete later or simply use as reference.
Last edited by Microburst2002; 12th Jan 2013 at 12:55. Reason: to extend the quote to the full text
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Cadet Murphy, are you serious??
ATC: If I give you a visual, can you make it from there?
Pilot: Um....ehhh...sure we can do it
ATC: OK, keep it tight, cleared for the visual 09
Pilot: Cleared visual approach runway 09 (AP disconnect aural warning in the background)
Fun times
And how would you do it if you didn't inserted it for whatever reason?
Last edited by Check Airman; 12th Jan 2013 at 05:24.
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We loved getting that short cut to 9 at MIA. Eyeballs take care of the situation. No typing required. Even more fun was being downwind over the bay at SFO at 11.000 and being told cleared for the visual 28R, keep your base inside the bridge.
I'm quite happy with TLAR by looking out the window but, if you Magenta Kids must use the box, create your fixes off the runway threshold; forget the VOR! YPPH03/196/10: 10nm final done. Lat Rev to add runway done. Create offsets and base positions off the 10nm PBD: defined waypoints, of course, prior to Transition/MSA. 
Moderator
Even more fun was being downwind ...
Two similar trips I recall fondly.
(a) HBA - SYD, L188, empty, late at night. FL300 (just for the interest) cleared for descent many miles south of SYD. Numerous (increasingly anxious) checks from ATC along the lines of "have you commenced descent yet ?". Despite our many suggestions that all was well and the view just great, and just about when we figured the guy was going to get very bitter and twisted, we started down about 5nm north of the airport .. turned inside the Harbour Bridge and still had to put on power before 1500ft. Guess I could have made it tighter but we were a tad tired after several sectors.
(b) DRW - CNS, B733, normal rough as guts westerly mid summer conditions. Overhead the upwind end around F130 for a very relaxed (and nil bumps) RH circuit over the water.
We had a standard keep us awake at O-dark-30 fun trick, again on the L188, HBA-LST. Aim was to handfly to TOC, nil cruise, nose straight over into the descent, close the levers, with bar money penalties depending on being on slope turning final with power up at the height nominated predeparture. No FMS, etc., and not much else to help other than mental back of a fag packet calculations.
Actually, this sort of thread does sadden me somewhat ...
Two similar trips I recall fondly.
(a) HBA - SYD, L188, empty, late at night. FL300 (just for the interest) cleared for descent many miles south of SYD. Numerous (increasingly anxious) checks from ATC along the lines of "have you commenced descent yet ?". Despite our many suggestions that all was well and the view just great, and just about when we figured the guy was going to get very bitter and twisted, we started down about 5nm north of the airport .. turned inside the Harbour Bridge and still had to put on power before 1500ft. Guess I could have made it tighter but we were a tad tired after several sectors.
(b) DRW - CNS, B733, normal rough as guts westerly mid summer conditions. Overhead the upwind end around F130 for a very relaxed (and nil bumps) RH circuit over the water.
We had a standard keep us awake at O-dark-30 fun trick, again on the L188, HBA-LST. Aim was to handfly to TOC, nil cruise, nose straight over into the descent, close the levers, with bar money penalties depending on being on slope turning final with power up at the height nominated predeparture. No FMS, etc., and not much else to help other than mental back of a fag packet calculations.
Actually, this sort of thread does sadden me somewhat ...
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It takes to have a company with not too strong OM policies preventing hand flying and captains willing to enjoy and let enjoy.
I have done a few with zero automation sectors in the 320, blank FMA from take off till touch down, including VOR approach with DME arc and including cruise flight (at 280 or below, of courrrrrse).
Now I am afraid of even suggesting the possibility of doing a no FD, no A/THR ILS...
I have done a few with zero automation sectors in the 320, blank FMA from take off till touch down, including VOR approach with DME arc and including cruise flight (at 280 or below, of courrrrrse).
Now I am afraid of even suggesting the possibility of doing a no FD, no A/THR ILS...
Last edited by Microburst2002; 12th Jan 2013 at 13:00.
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John Tulla - I used to (try to) do the same thing in the Dizzy 9.....pull out the
slats at 280kt - drop the gear - then flaps - all with full speed brake - but I'd
have to be much lower than 30 grand at 5 miles. The bestest I ever done was
into LST 31,000 at 30 DME on a DME Arr in TJJ for R14. Them 4 NTS'ing Dowty
Rotes musta gave more drag than 2 idling JT8D blowies.
We were leather-jacket petrolheads on the 9 fleet!
slats at 280kt - drop the gear - then flaps - all with full speed brake - but I'd
have to be much lower than 30 grand at 5 miles. The bestest I ever done was
into LST 31,000 at 30 DME on a DME Arr in TJJ for R14. Them 4 NTS'ing Dowty
Rotes musta gave more drag than 2 idling JT8D blowies.
We were leather-jacket petrolheads on the 9 fleet!
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The only L188 I flew was the sim to get my airline job. Ended up in a single engine ILS with no visual with another check airman pulling the fire handle on my last engine at DH. I passed. I can imagine with all those big props at idle the drag but am impressed with the FL300 story. We played the same game in the 737. Leaving cruising altitude you couldn't add power or use speed brakes. At 1,000 feet spool up and land. Most of the time it worked but you had to play winds and weight to make it work out. ATC sometimes interfered but usually not. It was really fun into SFO because of the Boulder altitude and speed restriction. We sometimes asked ATC to drop the rock to do the 1,000 ft spool up with the higher speed at Boulder.
Those were the days (sigh)... Later, some of us were restricted to 3000ft/min when below an altitude of MSA+3000ft. And then they introduced GPWS...
aterpster,
Good point. Many African countries, I now see, are not fully compliant with WGS84...
What's the likely maximum error in their published coordinates? (Am hoping it's less than 100 metres.)
aterpster,
Good point. Many African countries, I now see, are not fully compliant with WGS84...
What's the likely maximum error in their published coordinates? (Am hoping it's less than 100 metres.)
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Chris Scott:
I can't answer that other than to relate the errors in the continental U.S. before they made the conversion.
On the coasts it was as little as a couple of feet.
In Kansas it was as large as 1,000 feet, or so, in longitude, but much less in latitude.
aterpster
,
Good point. Many African countries, I now see, are not fully compliant with WGS84...
What's the likely maximum error in their published coordinates? (Am hoping it's less than 100 metres.)
Good point. Many African countries, I now see, are not fully compliant with WGS84...
What's the likely maximum error in their published coordinates? (Am hoping it's less than 100 metres.)
On the coasts it was as little as a couple of feet.
In Kansas it was as large as 1,000 feet, or so, in longitude, but much less in latitude.
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The difference can be quite large. The USN ran a ship aground about 12 years back using GPS fixes on a non WGS84 chart. And when I say aground I don't mean a submerged obstacle but a visible headland! I'll have to see if I can find some picks.
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Again, thanks for all the responses.
Just to be clear on one thing, I do not NEED a PBD or the automation to take me to a 10 mile final.
Ofcourse I can use the TLAR method and bring myself at a 10 mile final, which is essentially what I did, quiet nicely too.
It was the first time I heard that clearance, and I wanted to see what techniques other Pilots use, and maybe I was missing something.
Anyway thanks again.
Just to be clear on one thing, I do not NEED a PBD or the automation to take me to a 10 mile final.
Ofcourse I can use the TLAR method and bring myself at a 10 mile final, which is essentially what I did, quiet nicely too.
It was the first time I heard that clearance, and I wanted to see what techniques other Pilots use, and maybe I was missing something.
Anyway thanks again.