ATC asked us to intercept a 10 mile Final.
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Funny I came on here thinking of asking a similar question (although not about the A320). Did the OP come across this at Glasgow by an chance?
Single pilot and with only a Garmin 430 I just asked the controller for a heading rather than fiddle with entering waypoints. Would have been possible to do it quickly with an old VOR/DME RNAV system ironically...could have done it off the Glasgow VOR.
Single pilot and with only a Garmin 430 I just asked the controller for a heading rather than fiddle with entering waypoints. Would have been possible to do it quickly with an old VOR/DME RNAV system ironically...could have done it off the Glasgow VOR.
It is an unfortunate, but inevitable, result of aviation in this age of button-pushing and pretty-coloured screens. Those who have grown up using little else are rendered near-incapable when such gadgets are taken away from them, or are prevented from using them.
What seems like common sense (and that is essentially the ethos behind TLAR ...) for pilots experienced in 'hands-on' flying, is an utter mystery to Children of the Magenta String. And it is only going to get worse!
What seems like common sense (and that is essentially the ethos behind TLAR ...) for pilots experienced in 'hands-on' flying, is an utter mystery to Children of the Magenta String. And it is only going to get worse!
What absolute rubbish, Abbey Road, it's never magenta on an Airbus...
Think I'd ask ATC if there was any magic in 10 miles. It's slightly ambiguous anyway, IMHO, unless there's some protocol I'm not aware of. And it depends where you are when the instruction is given (e.g., you might be on the downwind leg).
Do you:
a) complete the turn on to the localiser at 10 nm;
b) head directly for the 10-mile final, and then start the turn on to the localiser so as not to shoot through it;
c) self-position so as to give yourself a short intercept leg at, say, a 30-degree angle?
"Is there an accurate way, other than inserting a PBD, to intercept at 10 miles?"
Even that's not strictly accurate (and the distraction is unacceptable). Defining the PBD without forcing an OVHD results in (b). Defining it with an OVHD means you shoot through the LLZ.
I'd probably use ROSE NAV and do my own headings, so would use AP. But check NAV ACCURACY first, or you might overfly the presidential palace like I once did in a third-world country.
Think I'd ask ATC if there was any magic in 10 miles. It's slightly ambiguous anyway, IMHO, unless there's some protocol I'm not aware of. And it depends where you are when the instruction is given (e.g., you might be on the downwind leg).
Do you:
a) complete the turn on to the localiser at 10 nm;
b) head directly for the 10-mile final, and then start the turn on to the localiser so as not to shoot through it;
c) self-position so as to give yourself a short intercept leg at, say, a 30-degree angle?
"Is there an accurate way, other than inserting a PBD, to intercept at 10 miles?"
Even that's not strictly accurate (and the distraction is unacceptable). Defining the PBD without forcing an OVHD results in (b). Defining it with an OVHD means you shoot through the LLZ.
I'd probably use ROSE NAV and do my own headings, so would use AP. But check NAV ACCURACY first, or you might overfly the presidential palace like I once did in a third-world country.
Umm, I think just do as the Captain said, PULL HDG and aim inside the IAF and refine as you get closer. It drives me mad when FO's are fiddling around trying to build circuits or PBD's in the FMGC when it would be easier just to take the autopilot out and eyeball it. 
Sign of the times I guess.
Sign of the times I guess.
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you really didn't give us enough information...so
were you on radar vectors, and had been given a heading to intercetp?
were you in radar contact?
were you in VMC DAYLIGHT?
What kind of final/instrument approach were you intercepting, a localizer, vor , ndb? four course range?
One could determine a 10 mile final by cchecking glide slope indications by adding 3200 feet to touchdown zone elevation (actually closer to 3160 feet)...so, fly at 3200' and when GS is centered, you are about 10 miles (slant range to GS antenna).
So, what exactly is the info as req'd above?
oh, did you have the airport in sight? had you been to the airport before?
were you on radar vectors, and had been given a heading to intercetp?
were you in radar contact?
were you in VMC DAYLIGHT?
What kind of final/instrument approach were you intercepting, a localizer, vor , ndb? four course range?
One could determine a 10 mile final by cchecking glide slope indications by adding 3200 feet to touchdown zone elevation (actually closer to 3160 feet)...so, fly at 3200' and when GS is centered, you are about 10 miles (slant range to GS antenna).
So, what exactly is the info as req'd above?
oh, did you have the airport in sight? had you been to the airport before?
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Seems like if they don,t want to give you a vector just wing it and for amusement see how close you can be.
I would choose the 20 mile scale method and aim for the middle. If it was an ils 3200 ft works for intercepting final. If ATC really cared they would give you a vector and speed so don't worry about it.
I would choose the 20 mile scale method and aim for the middle. If it was an ils 3200 ft works for intercepting final. If ATC really cared they would give you a vector and speed so don't worry about it.
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Single pilot and with only a Garmin 430 I just asked the controller for a heading rather than fiddle with entering waypoints. Would have been possible to do it quickly with an old VOR/DME RNAV system ironically...could have done it off the Glasgow VOR.
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1 - Ask your captain
2 - Look it up in the SOPS
3 - Call the company
4 - Ask ATC where you are
5 - Ask a passenger
6 - Don't do anything, wait till ATC tells you what to do.
2 - Look it up in the SOPS
3 - Call the company
4 - Ask ATC where you are
5 - Ask a passenger
6 - Don't do anything, wait till ATC tells you what to do.
Last edited by TheRobe; 10th Jan 2013 at 23:13.
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Thanks all for the responses and feedback, I do appreciate.
Sorry i did not give alot of details.
I was flying flight plan route which would take me to the VOR.
ATC cut me off on a very long base leg basically and told me to go direct to a 10 mile final to intercept the LOC.
We did ask if we could go direct to the initial FIX of the loc approach, to which ATC responded "negative".
Night time, localizer approach, radar contact.
Again, thanks.
Sorry i did not give alot of details.
I was flying flight plan route which would take me to the VOR.
ATC cut me off on a very long base leg basically and told me to go direct to a 10 mile final to intercept the LOC.
We did ask if we could go direct to the initial FIX of the loc approach, to which ATC responded "negative".
Night time, localizer approach, radar contact.
Again, thanks.
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You did everything right. If they don't give you a vector and speed just wing it and see how it works out. They don't seem to care. Life is too short to come up with magical approaches from anywhere just because approach is too lazy to give you a vector. Just do it if you want to test your side skills because it isn't required in an airliner.
Look at the new guys being hired. Do you think they could do anything without automation? I applaud the 1500 HR USA rule. We might have a pilot shortage but we will have real pilots. Others will have 250 hr wonders. Then they won't be allowed to handfly because of their lack of experience so if the button pushing doesn't work right they are finished. AF447 is an example of that. They had thousands of hours pushing buttons but couldn't hand fly an airplane. The old timer taking his break was the only one that could have fixed what they did. That is what happens when you become automation dependent.
Please give us real pilots back like we did when I was flying.
Look at the new guys being hired. Do you think they could do anything without automation? I applaud the 1500 HR USA rule. We might have a pilot shortage but we will have real pilots. Others will have 250 hr wonders. Then they won't be allowed to handfly because of their lack of experience so if the button pushing doesn't work right they are finished. AF447 is an example of that. They had thousands of hours pushing buttons but couldn't hand fly an airplane. The old timer taking his break was the only one that could have fixed what they did. That is what happens when you become automation dependent.
Please give us real pilots back like we did when I was flying.
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Sorry i did not give alot of details.
I was flying flight plan route which would take me to the VOR.
ATC cut me off on a very long base leg basically and told me to go direct to a 10 mile final to intercept the LOC.
We did ask if we could go direct to the initial FIX of the loc approach, to which ATC responded "negative".
Night time, localizer approach, radar contact.
I was flying flight plan route which would take me to the VOR.
ATC cut me off on a very long base leg basically and told me to go direct to a 10 mile final to intercept the LOC.
We did ask if we could go direct to the initial FIX of the loc approach, to which ATC responded "negative".
Night time, localizer approach, radar contact.
You have an FMS and ND, a 14.5 NM fix AND the airport on the ND, and you can't figure out how to quickly navigate to a point about 2/3 of the way out from the airport to the fix?!? How "accurate" do you have to be at that point?!?
I think you need a basic instrument navigation refresher!
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Also your captain was right, just use your best judgement and head more in the airport direction and don't worry too much about the 10 miles. I wouldn't. I don't think ATC cared either. You had plenty of distance behind preceding traffic so they were just cutting you short behind them. Maybe it was a noise abatement thing on the 10 mile final. You would have been fine just cutting your approach short to make ATC happy.
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If I were to hazard a guess I would suggest that if you had gone to the IAF the extra track miles would have messed up the controller's sequence for following traffic but I doubt he was after 10 mile final with laser precision. We live in a world where extreme precision is often possible but not required. TLAR sounds about right.
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Meatlover, trust me. Just use the ND and graphically take the green line with HDG to approx 10 miles from the runway.
Also ask PNF to sequence the waypoints so that waypoint TO will make sense, and that's it, you will have lateral and vertical navigation to quickly assess if you are too high now, before making your mental maths regarding that.
Also ask PNF to sequence the waypoints so that waypoint TO will make sense, and that's it, you will have lateral and vertical navigation to quickly assess if you are too high now, before making your mental maths regarding that.
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I normally precalculate a 10 mile final-fix for my destination (since ATC is more than likely to position you at 10 miles when giving radar vectors).
I do this via a spreadsheet on the iPad developed specifically for this PBD calculation, and then insert the waypoints in the FMS during preflight. I can always delete later or simply use as reference.
The other waypoints are base leg position on a 45 degree intercept. Then next to the waypoints are the heights for a 3 degree descent.
Interesting post.
I do this via a spreadsheet on the iPad developed specifically for this PBD calculation, and then insert the waypoints in the FMS during preflight. I can always delete later or simply use as reference.
The other waypoints are base leg position on a 45 degree intercept. Then next to the waypoints are the heights for a 3 degree descent.
Interesting post.
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Direct 10 miles final is standard procedure in certain parts of Africa - with all navaids at the airport being U/S 
What worries me is people asking how to intercept 10 miles final on an aircraft built around FMS (e.g. Airbus)
What worries me is people asking how to intercept 10 miles final on an aircraft built around FMS (e.g. Airbus)