Look inside when very close to touchdown?
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Look inside when very close to touchdown?
Hi all,
I am aware that most of you are experienced Captains and FOs with lots of flight time, and that is why I always come here for advice.
Bare in mind that I am a very new jet pilot that was lucky to get a job.
I am still line training, and find that this technique works for me so far, but looking for input or advice on how bad this habit is.
Because I do not know exactly how the end of the runway should look on flare, and because I am not as familiar as most of you guys with the flare and flying with the seat of the pants, I keep a standard way for now and just put some considerations to weight and strong headwinds or tailwinds.
For the most part I cut the power at 30, and hold the pitch attitude a bit to stop the ROD, final flare is at 20, and somewhere at this point I find that I ALWAYS take a VERY quick glimpse to see my ROD just to make sure I'm on the safe side. I messed up a landing once where I did not flare enough, and didn't even realize it, and developed this habit since then.
I just glimpse real quick, and when I see a nice break on ROD, I see that If I've got a 200/300 ROD I get comfortable and continue to look outside.
Sometimes I let go if I feel like I'm floating, otherwise continue to gently flare.
Has worked like a charm so far.
Just worried that this could be extremely dangerous or something.
Is it okay if I would continue to do this till I'm line checked and feel experienced enough?
Advice me
Thank you and Happy New Year to all!
I am aware that most of you are experienced Captains and FOs with lots of flight time, and that is why I always come here for advice.
Bare in mind that I am a very new jet pilot that was lucky to get a job.
I am still line training, and find that this technique works for me so far, but looking for input or advice on how bad this habit is.
Because I do not know exactly how the end of the runway should look on flare, and because I am not as familiar as most of you guys with the flare and flying with the seat of the pants, I keep a standard way for now and just put some considerations to weight and strong headwinds or tailwinds.
For the most part I cut the power at 30, and hold the pitch attitude a bit to stop the ROD, final flare is at 20, and somewhere at this point I find that I ALWAYS take a VERY quick glimpse to see my ROD just to make sure I'm on the safe side. I messed up a landing once where I did not flare enough, and didn't even realize it, and developed this habit since then.
I just glimpse real quick, and when I see a nice break on ROD, I see that If I've got a 200/300 ROD I get comfortable and continue to look outside.
Sometimes I let go if I feel like I'm floating, otherwise continue to gently flare.
Has worked like a charm so far.
Just worried that this could be extremely dangerous or something.
Is it okay if I would continue to do this till I'm line checked and feel experienced enough?
Advice me
Thank you and Happy New Year to all!
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I'm not a 'bus driver but this may help.
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/44476...technique.html
I agree wholeheartedly, the trainers should be asked really. Surely you've done some jump seat observation rides? Or at least observe the attitude when operating as PM?
I never look inside when 'very close' to touchdown. All mk.1 eyeball and feel. (Visual or cat 1 obviously...)
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/44476...technique.html
I agree wholeheartedly, the trainers should be asked really. Surely you've done some jump seat observation rides? Or at least observe the attitude when operating as PM?
I never look inside when 'very close' to touchdown. All mk.1 eyeball and feel. (Visual or cat 1 obviously...)
Last edited by M-ONGO; 31st Dec 2012 at 18:10.
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Isobars,
No not at all. They told me to continue doing what I was because it worked for me.
Just one of them told me to stop looking inside fully when I told him, others said its normal in my early stages.
M-ONGO,
Yes but tbh the jump seat doesn't help with that too much, and I've done PM for 10 sectors.
Surely it does take some time..
No not at all. They told me to continue doing what I was because it worked for me.
Just one of them told me to stop looking inside fully when I told him, others said its normal in my early stages.
M-ONGO,
Yes but tbh the jump seat doesn't help with that too much, and I've done PM for 10 sectors.
Surely it does take some time..
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Agreed, it's a different perspective. However, you can see how the others operate. Heads out, no doubt. It'll come no doubt! Are you low total time?
Last edited by M-ONGO; 31st Dec 2012 at 18:13.
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No I never looked inside.
Not even here until I messed up that landing. I hadn't flared enough and wasn't aware of it. Had me feeling like crap for a while.
Been doing this the last 12 flights and has worked well..
When I say quick glimpse I literally just check the ROD real quick.
Not even here until I messed up that landing. I hadn't flared enough and wasn't aware of it. Had me feeling like crap for a while.
Been doing this the last 12 flights and has worked well..
When I say quick glimpse I literally just check the ROD real quick.
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I'd not look inside at that stage of the flare. It will most likely cause you issues in the future. On a windy/gusty day you will have your hands full controlling the aircraft, the last thing you will want to do is look inside!
As others have said don't worry, it will come with practice. You will learn the 'correct' view out the window quickly and so whilst flaring will be able to just feel/see if you are high/low or have caught a gust/sink
As others have said don't worry, it will come with practice. You will learn the 'correct' view out the window quickly and so whilst flaring will be able to just feel/see if you are high/low or have caught a gust/sink
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No not at all. They told me to continue doing what I was because it worked for me.
Just one of them told me to stop looking inside fully when I told him, others said its normal in my early stages.
Suggest that if with 290 hrs TT you really have no confidence (here you are asking for 2nd opinions) with the advice your various training captain/s (should) have taken the time to note in your personal training documents, write a short note to your Manager Training passing on the helpful tips from PPRune for his action regarding your personal line training programe......
Just one of them told me to stop looking inside fully when I told him, others said its normal in my early stages.
Suggest that if with 290 hrs TT you really have no confidence (here you are asking for 2nd opinions) with the advice your various training captain/s (should) have taken the time to note in your personal training documents, write a short note to your Manager Training passing on the helpful tips from PPRune for his action regarding your personal line training programe......
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Eventualy you will have no troubles judging your ROD just looking outside, meanwile I would use the RA callouts to get a feeling of how things are going. I personaly stop taking glimpses at the PFD at about 200 to 300ft and concentrate only at the outside, remember that the VS indication can have some lag and may not be showing the real ROD at that exact moment.
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As above, you need to get the habit of judging RoD from the visual perspective. The trouble with looking in "if I would continue to do this till I... feel experienced enough?" is you will not get the experience
In addition, whilst the Airbus RoD is instantaneous, it might fail / misread, but also it cannot allow for Runway slope, which the visual judgement will.
I've got 12K+ hours, A320 command since 2003, and still "mess up" some landings. All my experience means is is I don't "feel like crap for a while"
NoD
In addition, whilst the Airbus RoD is instantaneous, it might fail / misread, but also it cannot allow for Runway slope, which the visual judgement will.
Not even here until I messed up that landing. I hadn't flared enough and wasn't aware of it. Had me feeling like crap for a while.
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I have quite a bit of A320 time and was always keen to see that co-pilots had full oportunity to develop their techniques. In order to become a seasoned operator yourself, I suggest that you gradually find a way to look less at ROD and more at whole runway perspective when so close to the ground.
There may be some other comments re near field view at touchdown, but eventually, by the flare, I viewed the far field less.
There may be some other comments re near field view at touchdown, but eventually, by the flare, I viewed the far field less.
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Lol Isobars, stop posting please.
To the rest, I really do appreciate the advice and tips.
Thanks a ton!
To the rest, I really do appreciate the advice and tips.
Thanks a ton!
Last edited by WhySoTough; 31st Dec 2012 at 23:07.
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Hello gents,
I have about 3500h on the A320 Family.
In my opinion it is important to have a short glimpse inside.
If you have more experience on type, you will most probably not need the rod because you can judge it by visual reference.
What is very difficult to judge, especially at night, is your pitch.
(A320, Flaps 3, crosswind from the left)
You can only check your pitch with reference to your PFD if you fly all types of the A320 Family.
What I would do is to continue with your technique, but I would implement a crosscheck of the pitch. With more experience you most probably will only check the pitch.
Have a good evening,
Seaduck
I have about 3500h on the A320 Family.
In my opinion it is important to have a short glimpse inside.
If you have more experience on type, you will most probably not need the rod because you can judge it by visual reference.
What is very difficult to judge, especially at night, is your pitch.
(A320, Flaps 3, crosswind from the left)
You can only check your pitch with reference to your PFD if you fly all types of the A320 Family.
What I would do is to continue with your technique, but I would implement a crosscheck of the pitch. With more experience you most probably will only check the pitch.
Have a good evening,
Seaduck
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Look where you're (NOT) going.
Please don't try this on Rwy 27 at Heraklion when the wind is light-moderate North Westerly.
Everything looks perfect up to just xbove the threshold and suddenly the aircraft is pointing towards the right hand grass, lights and cliff!
Happened to me several times on the 737NGs various and my theory is a gust or rotor off the upwind cliff blows on the fin/rudder surfaces at just the wrong stage of flight and rapid cautious correction is needed to avoid excursion.
I now include it as part of my HER approach briefing, especially to F/Os who are new to the field or haven't had the pleasure of this fright before.
Maybe old lags on this forum can quote other favourite fields where this fin-only x-wind event occurs?
Re screwed up landings, with 42 years flying and 18k+ hours I can and do get the odd one not quite the way I'd like, but hey, who's perfect?
Imagine explaining to der management what exactly you were doing before just before the ACMS recorded a heavy landing or tailscrape and they showing you the relevant handling instructions and asking why did you deviate? Then you may wish you'd kicked this habit earlier................
Everything looks perfect up to just xbove the threshold and suddenly the aircraft is pointing towards the right hand grass, lights and cliff!
Happened to me several times on the 737NGs various and my theory is a gust or rotor off the upwind cliff blows on the fin/rudder surfaces at just the wrong stage of flight and rapid cautious correction is needed to avoid excursion.
I now include it as part of my HER approach briefing, especially to F/Os who are new to the field or haven't had the pleasure of this fright before.
Maybe old lags on this forum can quote other favourite fields where this fin-only x-wind event occurs?
Re screwed up landings, with 42 years flying and 18k+ hours I can and do get the odd one not quite the way I'd like, but hey, who's perfect?
Imagine explaining to der management what exactly you were doing before just before the ACMS recorded a heavy landing or tailscrape and they showing you the relevant handling instructions and asking why did you deviate? Then you may wish you'd kicked this habit earlier................
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WST, you should be at the experience where you can judge your rate of descent visually looking outside. The only important instrument inside approaching flare is IAS. Ignore everything else and give it a couple glances so you don't get slow.
It has always worked for me and being mechanical on flare using RA and reducing power at a certain altitude isn't good because sometimes you get a wind change very low to the runway and you have to correct for it. Just fly your visual approach touchdown and don't get slow. Make it simple. It always worked for me. Once in a while you get a sinker or a gust so be ready to not let it FU your landing.
I wish I could have flown an airliner with 300 hrs. It took me 5500 hrs. Good luck.
It has always worked for me and being mechanical on flare using RA and reducing power at a certain altitude isn't good because sometimes you get a wind change very low to the runway and you have to correct for it. Just fly your visual approach touchdown and don't get slow. Make it simple. It always worked for me. Once in a while you get a sinker or a gust so be ready to not let it FU your landing.
I wish I could have flown an airliner with 300 hrs. It took me 5500 hrs. Good luck.
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To judge your speed past the 50 ft and avoid looking inside is the FEEL of the aircraft also,as you reach VREF the elevator will feel heavier and it is time to let it settle...