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Some landing advice please. A320

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Some landing advice please. A320

Old 9th May 2013, 00:54
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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This is wrong. 'Retard Retard' is a reminder, not an order (except in the autoland case). If you hear it on an ordinary manual landing, you've kept the power on for too long. Also, 20' is very much on the low side for the flare, especially on a heavy 320 or 321.
An A320 instructor would not say this. Also, if you are an A320 pilot or instructor, then all I have learnt on the A320 is wrong and does not work?
Yeh, right - even if I was wrong, which I am not, therer would have been a mild adjustment resulting in the same result. Also - (a need to tell?) 20` is very much on the low side? - the operative words here are `very much`
as opposed to TOO LOW!!


50`
30` Hold att, pressurise the sidestick,------------------eyes to the end of the rnwy
20` pitch up approx 2 degrees, judged visually!
Retard, when the old man says so, when the old man says so.

- it works,

fly it on as it WILL float very easily.

Last edited by Natstrackalpha; 9th May 2013 at 01:22.
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Old 9th May 2013, 10:48
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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@natstrackalpha, maybe you want to study the FCTM a bit more then, because airbus certainly disagrees with you.

NO-170 flare
At 20*ft, the "RETARD" auto call-out reminds the pilot to retard thrust levers. It is a reminder rather than an order.
And FCTM NO-160 approach procedure
RETARD auto call out comes at 10*ft for autoland as an order. (Instead of 20*ft for manual landing as an indication)
In fact during a manual approach the height at which the thrust levers are closed is a judgement based on environmental conditions. Reflected in the FCTM by:
At 20*ft, the "RETARD" auto call-out reminds the pilot to retard thrust levers. It is a reminder rather than an order. When best adapted, the pilot will rapidly retard all thrust levers: depending on the conditions, the pilot will retard earlier or later. However, the pilot must ensure that all thrust levers are at IDLE detent at the latest at touchdown, to ensure ground spoilers extension at touchdown.
@johnsmith
If you hear it on an ordinary manual landing, you've kept the power on for too long.
That is also evidently BS!!!The simple fact is that the airbus will ALWAYS call retard, even if the levers are already in idle.

Last edited by 737Jock; 9th May 2013 at 10:55.
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Old 9th May 2013, 11:04
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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@bubbers44

You are being too harsh on 300 hour guys. Most of them are very talented indeed. It's is mostly the old "experienced" skippers that want them to use the A/P, not the younger captains that started themselves as 300hr guys. You have no idea what you are talking about!

The problem with their experience levels is that they quickly loose the picture. But the again I have seen equally bad performance from guys with 5000+ hrs as well, the so-called career FO's. They really don't put incapable guys in the LHS in europe.

Last edited by 737Jock; 9th May 2013 at 12:19.
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Old 9th May 2013, 20:49
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Smile

737Jock

The problem with their experience levels is that they quickly loose the picture. But then again I have seen equally bad performance from guys with 5000+ hrs as well, the so-called career FO's. They really don't put incapable guys in the LHS in europe.
Jock, me old chukka and anyone else too who is quoting the FTM or FCOM.

I am a mere potato, what do I know - nothing!

In Europe, as with anywhere else, if you have a R/H seat man or woman with 300 hours or 5,000 hours, and they are not up to the performance (due to crap training, say) then train the b-----s up! Thats what you are there for. If you have not got the time to do that, then mark `em down and send them back for training.

Equal bs, according to you - perhaps. However, the fact - (not the bloody fcom) the fact remains that 20` is a good height to pitch up 2 degrees, judged visually, eyes to the end of the runway.

Back to the Old Man: Closing the thrust levers when he says "retard" is not going to do anyone wrong. Watch the a/p doing it and see what `it` does (somebody mentioned this observing of the a/p and emulating that - it is very good advice!)

You can get all creative and thoughtful closing the thrust levers at 50` say, some do, some do, it depends on the conditions, wind, weight and a whole number of WAT considerations. the capital of Mongolia in the summer - to Manston in the winter . . . ?

I still say, after having tried it, manually, again and again
50`
30` maintain the att (pressurise the sidestick)
flare by
20` with, a 2 deg nose pitch up - judged visually.

Retard, when the old man says so - and hey, do you know what, it lands very nicely.

When we get as professionally skillful as your good self then, there may well be variations on a theme and we can retard at different times - and hope we get the same result as this one, which, like it or not, works, time and time again. I`ve done it manually, with A/P followed by A/P disc, done it Raw Data and still it works, so what do I say, "try this as I believe it is the best proven and tried method, but don`t try this because 737Jock thinks its bullshit - it works and is 100% effective, but 737Jock has issues with it". You are not flying a B737 by any chance are you Jock? That is a different kettle of fish, sir.

Not disputing the FCTM for one minute - except `airbus` who built the thing, don`t always get it right - like in the case of not resolving issues such as DC ESS Failure, no mention of how to restore comms there - neither on ECAM nor in the QRH . . .? Are we to suppose then that the ensuent loss of comms are to be lived with, or do we restore comms despite the fact that it is not written anywhere how to do it?

Overall airbus are most adept and professional at building lovely aeroplanes which fly really well and are as safe as they ever can be, using the highest of modern technology, how cool is that!

Tried and trusted methods of how to control the dang thang as it is different from conventional aircraft, seemingly by rote, seemingly by numbers, will get you though marvellously, until that time when the wings sprout from your shoulders, if that is at all possible, flying a whole bunch of computers and fly-by-wire divorcing the `feel` from the pilot to the outside air flow.

sake!

Last edited by Natstrackalpha; 9th May 2013 at 21:19.
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Old 9th May 2013, 21:10
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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That is also evidently BS!!!The simple fact is that the airbus will ALWAYS call retard, even if the levers are already in idle.
It has been some time and things may have changed but when I transitioned to the A-320 (1991) there was one captain who had a reputation for consistently making the best landings - we were all pretty new to the Bus then. One very observant F/O picked up on the fact that he NEVER heard the RETARD call when this gentleman was at the controls.
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Old 10th May 2013, 01:46
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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I'm flying the A319, so you might want to adapt that to your particular aircraft.
This is what I do most of the times, some times I'll adapt it due to external factors obviously.
I will retard the throttle at 30, then I'll start my flare at 30 right away if LW is above 55 tons, otherwise I'll wait for 20ft.
Then once you start your flare, just pitch up slightly and look all the way down the rwy and let the aircraft slooooowly loose altitude.
Problem with me initially was that I didn't look down the runway, I looked inside wayyyy to much and transitioned outside at the last time. I had my fair share of booms but my landings significantly improved once I started looking way more outside, just like I used to be doing on the skyhawk .
If you balloon, try to release sidestick pressure, but do not try to push the sidestick forward, don't try to increase the pitch either.
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Old 10th May 2013, 03:43
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Idle Thrust

Sorry, but I've flew A320s back in '95 for 9 yrs and again in 2010 and they have ALWAYS called "Retard, Retard" regardless of TL position.

Just read John Smiths post, maybe I'm wrong. So much for memory!

Last edited by ANCPER; 10th May 2013 at 03:45.
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Old 10th May 2013, 04:10
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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737 jock, when I started in the 737 I had 5500 hrs because that was required. When I became a captain my FO needed 5,000 hrs. so we didn't run a flight school as an airline, we really knew how to fly a B737 as captain on our first day as FO. Things are different now and some people think 300 hr pilots are totally qualified to fly an airliner with no supervision. You decide.
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Old 10th May 2013, 04:35
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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As for the old timers wanting them to use the autopilot, I probably would too knowing how they would hand fly it. The new captains are probably still wobbling around getting it on the ground so don't notice.
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Old 10th May 2013, 11:12
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Very good discussion, many fascinating insights...I am now very retired, but flew the whole family for some years, and reading all the posts, and remembering my experience, I wonder if erverybody uses, or is ordered to use the autothrottle? I used it of course when necessary (autoland, climb, cruise, but if the approach was CAT 1 or better , I always had it OFF at the beginning of the approach. And I was not the only one! Speed fluctuating a little with gusts etc... but once you have settled with the right N1, you seldom need to change it during your descent. Same thing with flight director bars...very dangerous things at times (see the Rio Paris accident)...As for the landing itself, you said it all...I just remember (320) that it is the only plane where I often pushed slightly on the stick to land it (when coming very close to the ground). Memories...
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Old 10th May 2013, 12:41
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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You really are showing your age bubbers44!
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Old 10th May 2013, 13:53
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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No. You will not get the "RETARD" auto callout if you have closed the taps by 20'. (Having landed an Airbus twice today I can assure you that is the case.)
Either your airline changed something or you need to pay better attention johnsmith:

Rio de Janeiro to Sao Paulo ENTIRE FLIGHT IN ENGLISH (43 minutes) - YouTube

In this case thrust levers are fully closed by 30ft! The airbus will call RETARD at 20ft.

FCOM:
RETARD ANNOUNCEMENT
The loudspeaker announces RETARD at 20*ft or at 10*ft if autothrust is active and one autopilot is in LAND mode.

Last edited by 737Jock; 10th May 2013 at 14:02.
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Old 10th May 2013, 13:55
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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You really are showing your age bubbers44!
At least you won't hear "Retard" from him...
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Old 10th May 2013, 14:56
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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No copilot or computer has called me a retard yet. I guess that is in the new stuff. Does it say retard when you make a bad landing too? You are right though, they made me quit playing this game at 60 because of old age. Now pilots are smart enough to fly until 65.
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Old 10th May 2013, 17:38
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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No. You will not get the "RETARD" auto callout if you have closed the taps by 20'. (Having landed an Airbus twice today I can assure you that is the case.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

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Old 10th May 2013, 17:50
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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NARVAL

but once you have settled with the right N1,
NARVAL bon soir, that is so cool . . . I found that if I set thrust at 180kts say, then flap1 (+/-gear) will bring me down to `S` speed followed by flaps 2 with no (or very little) thrust adjustment like a constant power approach technique.
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Old 10th May 2013, 17:54
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Natstrackalpha, check the video I posted and the fcom! The airbus does say Retard even when the thrust levers are already closed at 20ft.
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Old 10th May 2013, 18:52
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Jock - so what? You are now arguing in my favour! I never disputed about the old man saying retard - you meant somebody else, surely?

You need somebody who is arguing that the lil `ol man won`t say anything.

However, now we are here - again - since when, like, when, was it necessary for a pilot to get a retard call anyway - yea lo that I always adhere to it, it is sort of comforting. . . . .

My point - (sigh) this time (sigh again) is - quite frankly, by the time one gets to an A320 - if one cannot land a bloody aeroplane, with or without a voice then one should not be there flying the bloody thang in the first place, after many years of experience, you then move on up. For those young `uns who have gone through a sort of integrated course, and have made it to an airline with one of the more direct routes to the right hand seat - have had to crack it in the sim and in the aeroplane too- they `aint gonna let a total num num loose on a $50,000,000 jet -

Everybody on here can land, successfully - unless we are all ghosts from, the past!!! Giving tips on landing to somebody who is on base training or ZFT is one thing. Debating like a load of politicians is pointless and avoids the objective.

Somebody also PM`d me - in short don`t bother! some do things the right way - others do things the wrong way, if your company does it your way then thats up to your SOPs and our SOPs dictate the best way, whether its switching off an APU ! ! ! ! or landing - it works, like, this, gottit? Good, now you try it, well done! Now lets move onto somethingelse.

Apart from the odd g-bs--te, an experienced Captain in the Left seat has loads more years of experience and has had to endure deep training courses and has probably been an instructor and has flown about three kinds of airliners again and again for a number of years.

You are just trying to wind me up - or you are inebriated or just thick.

One f---g turtle neck who knew jack, actually tried to tell me to delete the EO immediately after an engine fail - in short, either do it properly or f--- o--. There are plenty of young students who fly really well after good quality training, and they really want to learn and really want to get it right - that is why they ask us. It is up to us to sift the totkers from the gen studes/FOs and not be led into childish debate by the former.

Last edited by Natstrackalpha; 10th May 2013 at 18:55.
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Old 11th May 2013, 10:32
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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You do realise your posts are almost unreadable natstrackalpha? I don't know why you are applauding clear BS in post 98, but that led me to believe you think that the airbus does not call retard in some cases.
I'm not argueing in anyone's favour nor to undermine anybody. This thread is full of BS that is more a reflection of peoples opinions rather then factual information.

In general:
1. According to airbus the pilot judges when to close the thrust, not when "the ol man says"
2. The callout is only a reminder not a command during manual flight.
3. The airbus will ALWAYS call retard
Source: a320 manuals

I'm not sure how anyone's way can be better then what the manufacturer says in their certified manuals about how it is done. It would be bad training to teach anything other then what the manufacturer says.
A. It would leave you open to a whole range of nastiness when something goes wrong.
B. The manufacturer has more experience with their aircraft then you will ever be able to get in your career.

When somebody asks for advice on here I'm surprised to see so much BS, that can easily be disproven by opening the FCOM/FCTM.
Closing the thrust when the ol man says might work 9 out of 10 times, but we are trying to score 10 out of 10 aren't we? The flare and closing thrust is a judgement, and getting it wrong a few times does more for learning then 1 solution for everything advice. But what works even better is manual thrust.

Yes I fly a320 and I have flown 737's.

Back to the Old Man: Closing the thrust levers when he says "retard" is not going to do anyone wrong. Watch the a/p doing it and see what `it` does (somebody mentioned this observing of the a/p and emulating that - it is very good advice!)
Well the autopilot starts reducing the thrust at 30ft RA, not at 20! So how does that relate to the old man? It doesn't.

Last edited by 737Jock; 11th May 2013 at 10:49.
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Old 11th May 2013, 20:30
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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got it...........ok, ok.

Not trying to make a point anymore, see link for interest only.

From flightglobal

Enhanced A320 logic to warn pilots of throttle retard oversight

Last edited by Natstrackalpha; 11th May 2013 at 20:48.
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