A330/21/20 Engine failure on approach
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 14
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A330/21/20 Engine failure on approach
Hi All,
I just wanted to pick a few brains about losing an engine on the approach using my trusty Airbus. Our company has no recommendation on this subject apart from 'Go around young man'. I don't personally think there's always a need for such over reaction, especially if I'm stabilised.
May i have your ideas please?
Would you continue? If so what 'nippit' criteria do you use?
Would you change flap setting to Flap 3 or leave full?
What height is your cut off for config changes?
Etc etc. You get the drift, so please tell me what you think...
Kind regards
Cribbly
I just wanted to pick a few brains about losing an engine on the approach using my trusty Airbus. Our company has no recommendation on this subject apart from 'Go around young man'. I don't personally think there's always a need for such over reaction, especially if I'm stabilised.
May i have your ideas please?
Would you continue? If so what 'nippit' criteria do you use?
Would you change flap setting to Flap 3 or leave full?
What height is your cut off for config changes?
Etc etc. You get the drift, so please tell me what you think...
Kind regards
Cribbly
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,424
Likes: 34
From: London,England
The general advice from our lot is that if you can get the ECAM squared away by 1000ft agl then continue the approach, if not then g/a and get it sorted out before another approach. One of the nice things about the Airbus way of doing single engine approaches is that there is no single engine landing checklist and the same flap setting is used, it means that as long as the a/c is under control and the initial items are done there is nothing to change.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 259
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From: delta.bc.canada
The fcom4 covers the 'eng fail' on final.
The QRH stipulates that one might cont'with the ECAM actions until 400' agl(first page)the same as the takeoff case.
My present Co'have 'elected to recind all actions 1000'agl to 'comply with the Cat2/3 requirement to have it all done by the 'said 1000'aglfinal.........
The QRH stipulates that one might cont'with the ECAM actions until 400' agl(first page)the same as the takeoff case.
My present Co'have 'elected to recind all actions 1000'agl to 'comply with the Cat2/3 requirement to have it all done by the 'said 1000'aglfinal.........
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 14
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There's more..
Thanks Max & m&v,
It all sounds exactly like my company.
Just a thought though; if you're stabilised with, say, @ 81% N1 and you have an engine fail on the apph, surely it won't take much more power to keep you stable on the G/S on one engine? Isn't it safer to select MCT on one, especially with the Autopilot engaged and continue, rather than do a g/a with a failure (at worst, a fire).
Also, if you continued, what would you do with the flaps? Go to F3 or keep FULL?
If you go F3, will the speed de-stabilise?
I'd love to play around in the sim, but the 'keep it SOP' Brigade aren't too keen on experimenting.
More thoughts please.
Regards
CD
PS. No childish stuff please.
It all sounds exactly like my company.
Just a thought though; if you're stabilised with, say, @ 81% N1 and you have an engine fail on the apph, surely it won't take much more power to keep you stable on the G/S on one engine? Isn't it safer to select MCT on one, especially with the Autopilot engaged and continue, rather than do a g/a with a failure (at worst, a fire).
Also, if you continued, what would you do with the flaps? Go to F3 or keep FULL?
If you go F3, will the speed de-stabilise?
I'd love to play around in the sim, but the 'keep it SOP' Brigade aren't too keen on experimenting.
More thoughts please.
Regards
CD
PS. No childish stuff please.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
From: Arabian Gulf
Our company has the same limit - 1000ft AGL. Pretty much the FSF 'stabilized approach' criteria.
Why the MCT Cribbly? Leave the reference thrust setting in G/A, you won't need much more power, besides an engine failure on approach is observable, and less difficult to control (especially on the Airbus/B777).
However, If you do Go-around, check to see if you have an Emergency Turn or Engine Failure Procedure for the runway (critical airport). Flying the 'standard' Missed Approach Procedure, 'may-not' guarantee your obstacle clearance (most critical airfields DON'T and most MAP's have different PDG's).
This should really be another thread (I have started similar ones - and JT will tell you much more) - ----------so here goes.....
How many of you (your company) have Engine Failure Procedures for :-
a) Take-off
b) Missed Approach
?????????????????????????
we do,.... did,..... do,.... did.......on going discussion among pilots/managers who can't change, with the truth about safety!!!!!
:o
fly safe!
Why the MCT Cribbly? Leave the reference thrust setting in G/A, you won't need much more power, besides an engine failure on approach is observable, and less difficult to control (especially on the Airbus/B777).
However, If you do Go-around, check to see if you have an Emergency Turn or Engine Failure Procedure for the runway (critical airport). Flying the 'standard' Missed Approach Procedure, 'may-not' guarantee your obstacle clearance (most critical airfields DON'T and most MAP's have different PDG's).
This should really be another thread (I have started similar ones - and JT will tell you much more) - ----------so here goes.....
How many of you (your company) have Engine Failure Procedures for :-
a) Take-off
b) Missed Approach
?????????????????????????
we do,.... did,..... do,.... did.......on going discussion among pilots/managers who can't change, with the truth about safety!!!!!
:o fly safe!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Max Angle,
You said........
"there is no single engine landing checklist and the same flap setting is used"
Basically I agree with your post. However, there is a single engine approach checklist (A320) which is often overlooked. QRH 2.19 specifies that if you will level off on the approach, then the approach and landing should be completed in config 3. I don't have the QRH in front of me but I think this is what it says.
Regards,
AR
You said........
"there is no single engine landing checklist and the same flap setting is used"
Basically I agree with your post. However, there is a single engine approach checklist (A320) which is often overlooked. QRH 2.19 specifies that if you will level off on the approach, then the approach and landing should be completed in config 3. I don't have the QRH in front of me but I think this is what it says.
Regards,
AR
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
From: delta.bc.canada
Cribbly,you go to the MCT to cover the goaround case(once the thrust lever is at idle!!!!!!).If you plan an auto land(why not)and the FMA stipulates CAT3-single(fail passive)then according to the Limitations sction your required to select Flaps FULL.(no answer given when question raised before but we suspect the autopilot gets more controllability than at Config3)
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 942
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From: Thailand
Depending on his age, Flight Detent may find that, in about 20 years or so, he will have to stay in the good ole US of A!
Jolly good job too, I say. And yes, it is a bit repetetive.
Can he think of something sensible to say?
ain't Boeing, ain't going indeed. Phuhhhh
Jolly good job too, I say. And yes, it is a bit repetetive.
Can he think of something sensible to say?
ain't Boeing, ain't going indeed. Phuhhhh
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
From: Gotham City
Airbus do not stipulate a procedure for eng failure on final approach in CAT I or better conditions.
Airbus do state ECAM actions at least 400' above the runway for takeoff approach or go-around. The also state in FCOM 3 (A320 3.02.01) 'In some emergency cases, provided the appropriate flight path is established, the pilot flying may initiate ECAM actions before this height.
I believe the references in FCOM 4 Flight Phase Related Procedures refer to CAT II/III approaches where ECAM actions must be completed prior to 1000'.
In CAT III DUAL if below alert height (100' radio A320 family) then you may continue and autoland after an engine failure.
CAT I approaches are not subject to the same regulation and below 1000', I believe it is acceptable to carry on, stopping ECAM at 400' to concentrate on landing the aircraft, or if on fire invoking the 'In some emergency cases........' clause.
Assuming A/THR is engaged at the time of failure and flap full is selected with the aircraft stable prior to the failure if my memory is correct all you would have to do is place the thrust levers in the MCT gate when the FMA prompts you, centre the slip indicator & trim the rudder. Sorted. ECAM actions down to 400', land, complete ECAM actions. (And don't forget the landing checklist!)
Of course in a 737..............
Airbus do state ECAM actions at least 400' above the runway for takeoff approach or go-around. The also state in FCOM 3 (A320 3.02.01) 'In some emergency cases, provided the appropriate flight path is established, the pilot flying may initiate ECAM actions before this height.
I believe the references in FCOM 4 Flight Phase Related Procedures refer to CAT II/III approaches where ECAM actions must be completed prior to 1000'.
In CAT III DUAL if below alert height (100' radio A320 family) then you may continue and autoland after an engine failure.
CAT I approaches are not subject to the same regulation and below 1000', I believe it is acceptable to carry on, stopping ECAM at 400' to concentrate on landing the aircraft, or if on fire invoking the 'In some emergency cases........' clause.
Assuming A/THR is engaged at the time of failure and flap full is selected with the aircraft stable prior to the failure if my memory is correct all you would have to do is place the thrust levers in the MCT gate when the FMA prompts you, centre the slip indicator & trim the rudder. Sorted. ECAM actions down to 400', land, complete ECAM actions. (And don't forget the landing checklist!)
Of course in a 737..............
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
From: MiddleEast
Hi all, seems to be a lot of company differences but no reference to the manufacturers guidance.
Our company follows Airbus to the letter should an engine fail on final. There is two situations:-
Visual: - continue approach - select MCT - do what you can down to 400' AGL (LAND green) - land (same flap setting)
Cat 2/3: - Same down to 1000'AGL. Below 1000' go round.
Unless you are on fire then all bets are off - land.
The same applies to the A340.
Our only deviation from manufacturer we have for the A320 is that for a planned one engine inop' arrival with time to prepare we use flap 3. This is only so that we have the same procedure for both our A320 and A4340 crews. Some of which fly both and it makes life easier when transferring between them..
Have a nice day
Our company follows Airbus to the letter should an engine fail on final. There is two situations:-
Visual: - continue approach - select MCT - do what you can down to 400' AGL (LAND green) - land (same flap setting)
Cat 2/3: - Same down to 1000'AGL. Below 1000' go round.
Unless you are on fire then all bets are off - land.
The same applies to the A340.
Our only deviation from manufacturer we have for the A320 is that for a planned one engine inop' arrival with time to prepare we use flap 3. This is only so that we have the same procedure for both our A320 and A4340 crews. Some of which fly both and it makes life easier when transferring between them..
Have a nice day
