SAAB's new turboprop
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Neither does it help that the industry has responded to the many challenges of recent years by increasingly distancing itself from the public upon which it is dependent. That public provides paying passengers but could also offer novel commercial partnerships. The ideas are there, but the welcome is not.
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Another major issue is the security circus which has added an extra hour to checkin times, reducing the time advantage of short haul flights over the road or rail alternatives.
The less time saved, the less passengers are prepared to pay for a ticket.
Air travel was a pleasant and convenient experience, now it has become a pain in the backside for passengers who are increasingly voting with their feet.
The less time saved, the less passengers are prepared to pay for a ticket.
Air travel was a pleasant and convenient experience, now it has become a pain in the backside for passengers who are increasingly voting with their feet.
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Celtic
many people have lost a great deal of money backing "small innovative Aerospace companies"
normally they completely underestimate the challenges they face and the time and costs involved and go bust
it's a great dream that somehow we're going to see innovative technologies at low cost but the record shows that it doesn't happen
many people have lost a great deal of money backing "small innovative Aerospace companies"
normally they completely underestimate the challenges they face and the time and costs involved and go bust
it's a great dream that somehow we're going to see innovative technologies at low cost but the record shows that it doesn't happen
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Harry,
With respect to the Swedish population overall, Saab's aerospace division could be considered "small and innovative", but with so many 'firsts' behind them since they started building aircraft in the 1930's only a naive person would underestimate Saab's capabilites and experience.
Saab succesfully launched the Scandia 90 airliner in 1946 and in a tough post WW2 market produced 18 airframes with the entire fleet later sold to Vasp in Sao Paulo Brazil. Could this aircraft have led to the genesis of Embraer? Considering this was done immediately after the war and with all the associated shortages of raw materials, manufacturing infrastructure, etc, it was an amazing effort.
Saab also produced the J29 Tunnan in 1948 and it was the first post WW2 swept wing jet fighter in europe.
The Saab 340 first flew in 1983 with the wings originally supplied by Fairchild in the U.S.. Fairchild left the partnership after 40 aircraft and Saab increased their manufacturing capacity to include the wings and produced a total of 459 aircraft.
In all this Saab has experienced the vagaries and disappointments of aircraft manufacturng and profited from some spectacular successes.
For a small country with a total population of less that 10 million Saab certainly qualifies as a "small and highly innovative aerospace company", but they have consistently 'punched above their weight' and achieved success by doing things differently from others. And such differences include sticking with their own perception of what constitutes a market opportunity and identifying the risks involved.
With respect to the Swedish population overall, Saab's aerospace division could be considered "small and innovative", but with so many 'firsts' behind them since they started building aircraft in the 1930's only a naive person would underestimate Saab's capabilites and experience.
Saab succesfully launched the Scandia 90 airliner in 1946 and in a tough post WW2 market produced 18 airframes with the entire fleet later sold to Vasp in Sao Paulo Brazil. Could this aircraft have led to the genesis of Embraer? Considering this was done immediately after the war and with all the associated shortages of raw materials, manufacturing infrastructure, etc, it was an amazing effort.
Saab also produced the J29 Tunnan in 1948 and it was the first post WW2 swept wing jet fighter in europe.
The Saab 340 first flew in 1983 with the wings originally supplied by Fairchild in the U.S.. Fairchild left the partnership after 40 aircraft and Saab increased their manufacturing capacity to include the wings and produced a total of 459 aircraft.
In all this Saab has experienced the vagaries and disappointments of aircraft manufacturng and profited from some spectacular successes.
For a small country with a total population of less that 10 million Saab certainly qualifies as a "small and highly innovative aerospace company", but they have consistently 'punched above their weight' and achieved success by doing things differently from others. And such differences include sticking with their own perception of what constitutes a market opportunity and identifying the risks involved.
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For reasons that are understandable amongst pilots, there is a terror of failure of any kind but this fear doesn't help the industry evolve. Think about it: for the last twenty years school children all over the world have been designing and building experimental processes and devices and sending them into space for testing and evaluation. Where is the opportunity for a motivated adolescent to "mess about" in aerotechnology and see his/her fifteenth wacky idea accepted as a sheer bloody brilliant? The irony is that the multitude of regulations imposed upon the aviation sector are largely reactive and fail to take account changes taking place in society or business.
Fortunately, it looks like some of the fissures in the system will soon develop into gaping holes and we will all, finally, benefit from useful cross-fertilsation.
Last edited by CelticRambler; 20th Jun 2012 at 09:36.
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I tend to agree with Oracle. Not only have they (the swedes) produced very good aircraft but to compete successfully with US government financial backing and still succeed is remarkable.
I'm sure something very exciting will emerge contradictory to the Poms who have sold most of their industry and banks to the germans.
A very good friend of mine is a Swedish TRE and he maintains an ultra low profile, just like SAAB. Don't talk, just DO and DELIVER. SAAB aircraft has a record of doing just that with quality.
I'm sure something very exciting will emerge contradictory to the Poms who have sold most of their industry and banks to the germans.
A very good friend of mine is a Swedish TRE and he maintains an ultra low profile, just like SAAB. Don't talk, just DO and DELIVER. SAAB aircraft has a record of doing just that with quality.
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Flight this week remarks that almost every commercial jetliner built today looks like planes designed and built in the late 50's and 60's and that neither manufacturers nor buyers are willing to make a major investment in anything dramatically new
the only really innovative aircraft designer of the last 30 years has been Bert Rutan TBH and he has been building (relatively) small aircraft
I suspect that more aerospace effort is going into designing lighter seats and better cabin electronics than in any new airframe design these days
I agree it's a pity but that's the world we live in - dominated by the money men
the only really innovative aircraft designer of the last 30 years has been Bert Rutan TBH and he has been building (relatively) small aircraft
I suspect that more aerospace effort is going into designing lighter seats and better cabin electronics than in any new airframe design these days
I agree it's a pity but that's the world we live in - dominated by the money men
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I think Saab producing an all new aircraft on their own is an illusion. However there are many parties who would like to be involved in the developing countries. There seems to be demand for 100 seat aircraft, operating with jet like speed and comfort inbetween traditional RJ's on the bigger jets, with better efficiency. In 08 on a.net we created a kind of "Super 340" the Centiliner. A narrow 5 abreast or premium 4 abreast.
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When I was actively involved as a pilot in the general aviation world, it was always an unfortunate truth that propellers were second-class and an automatic downer. People would lead clients or friends out to their super-hot Cheyenne 400 or Avanti or top-of-the-line King Air, and the reaction invariably was, "Jeez, I thought you said you had a JET, not a little prop plane..."
Certainly passengers troop out to RJs without a care and are repelled by equally large, and often equally sophisticated, turboprops. Would this be a factor in airlines' choices of aircraft, or are they purely driven by operating economies?
Certainly passengers troop out to RJs without a care and are repelled by equally large, and often equally sophisticated, turboprops. Would this be a factor in airlines' choices of aircraft, or are they purely driven by operating economies?
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Step,
In the mid 1990's, when jet fuel was very cheap, RJ salespersons coined the term "prop avoidance" to foster RJ flying with a vew to further sales and had great success in this regard. Over in europe Crossair at that time conducted exit interview surveys with de-planing turbo passengers to gauge whether such an effect crossed the atlantic and had entered the psyche of their passengers.
Crossairs studies determined that provided there were on-time departures and that fares were reasonable and schedules were convenient, they (european passengers) weren't overly concerned as to whether there was a prop on the motor or otherwise. Corssair specifically canvassed passenger thoughts on safety and their results concluded that their passengers had faith in both the competence of technical staff and the design safety of their turbo conveyance.
Crossair, in this case, ultimately concluded that european passengers were more sophisticated than their american counterparts and not given to responding to marketing campaigns that questioned the safety of the turboprop aircraft.
In the mid 1990's, when jet fuel was very cheap, RJ salespersons coined the term "prop avoidance" to foster RJ flying with a vew to further sales and had great success in this regard. Over in europe Crossair at that time conducted exit interview surveys with de-planing turbo passengers to gauge whether such an effect crossed the atlantic and had entered the psyche of their passengers.
Crossairs studies determined that provided there were on-time departures and that fares were reasonable and schedules were convenient, they (european passengers) weren't overly concerned as to whether there was a prop on the motor or otherwise. Corssair specifically canvassed passenger thoughts on safety and their results concluded that their passengers had faith in both the competence of technical staff and the design safety of their turbo conveyance.
Crossair, in this case, ultimately concluded that european passengers were more sophisticated than their american counterparts and not given to responding to marketing campaigns that questioned the safety of the turboprop aircraft.
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I wonder whether it's "safety" that prop avoiders are questioning, though, or simply some kind of perceived second-best status. Certainly the latter is what has always prevented sophisticated prop-driven aircraft from making serious inroads into the midrange of the market--i.e. versus Citations, Lears, Hawkers and the like.
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Crossair, in this case, ultimately concluded that european passengers were more sophisticated than their american counterparts and not given to responding to marketing campaigns that questioned the safety of the turboprop aircraft.
Freight God
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Yes, but who says that companies always do the right thing? Mother wants jets, so we give mother jets, after all mother pays for it. And ATC complained the Saabs were to slow in approach....
Funny enough the same ATC afterwards complained that the Jets were too fast...
The only thing one really should believe is the P&L, the rest is nonsense. And if there is one manufacturer who has shown in the past that they can produce a superior product for less money than the rest, then it is Saab.
Everything that has been said about a lot of the operators of the present is true, but the reasoning behind maybe not. There definitely is a market. There are reasons why people fly even in small quantities from one place to another and pay quite a substantial amount for it. Otherwise all those aircraft would simply not be operated. Is it not more due to the fact that these are the only aircraft available that they are used by the so-called third tier airlines? And is it not more because they are aging, requiring a whole lot of maintenance that the barely manage to make a profit?
Lease rates and financing terms are not the real problem today, it is the cost of fuel and maintenance, and at least in Europe, the absurd amounts for 'security' and other passenger related rip-offs that make the aircraft having a problem to operate making money. However, a lot of these restrictions do not apply in the rest of the world.
As always, KISS is the real determining factor. Anything else is making things complex and expensive. If anything speed is not the imperative, it is simplification, easiness of maintenance and fuel efficiency. The last one is entirely on the engine manufacturers and that may be the real stumbling block.
Funny enough the same ATC afterwards complained that the Jets were too fast...
The only thing one really should believe is the P&L, the rest is nonsense. And if there is one manufacturer who has shown in the past that they can produce a superior product for less money than the rest, then it is Saab.
Everything that has been said about a lot of the operators of the present is true, but the reasoning behind maybe not. There definitely is a market. There are reasons why people fly even in small quantities from one place to another and pay quite a substantial amount for it. Otherwise all those aircraft would simply not be operated. Is it not more due to the fact that these are the only aircraft available that they are used by the so-called third tier airlines? And is it not more because they are aging, requiring a whole lot of maintenance that the barely manage to make a profit?
Lease rates and financing terms are not the real problem today, it is the cost of fuel and maintenance, and at least in Europe, the absurd amounts for 'security' and other passenger related rip-offs that make the aircraft having a problem to operate making money. However, a lot of these restrictions do not apply in the rest of the world.
As always, KISS is the real determining factor. Anything else is making things complex and expensive. If anything speed is not the imperative, it is simplification, easiness of maintenance and fuel efficiency. The last one is entirely on the engine manufacturers and that may be the real stumbling block.
Rebel PPRuNer
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2007:
TGAM STORY
2012:
WestJet picks Bombardier Q400 planes for new service | CTV News
TGAM STORY
WestJet chairman Clive Beddoe, who announced Tuesday that he's stepping down as chief executive officer in September, said he's skeptical about whether Porter has what it takes to be a serious threat.
“The public at large has historically not liked getting on turboprops. You're going to get banged around by turbulence a lot more. And looking out the window, seeing those propellers spinning is not very comforting to the flying public,” Mr. Beddoe said. “We operate at 40,000 feet with a modern jet, so it's a much more comfortable and faster ride.”
“The public at large has historically not liked getting on turboprops. You're going to get banged around by turbulence a lot more. And looking out the window, seeing those propellers spinning is not very comforting to the flying public,” Mr. Beddoe said. “We operate at 40,000 feet with a modern jet, so it's a much more comfortable and faster ride.”
WestJet picks Bombardier Q400 planes for new service | CTV News
CALGARY — WestJet Airlines has selected Bombardier to supply the propeller aircraft it requires for a new regional service, putting to rest speculation that the order would go to a European rival of the Montreal-based plane manufacturer.
The Calgary-based airline announced Tuesday that it will take delivery of up to 45 of the Bombardier Q400 Next Generation planes over the next six years. They will be used for a new regional service that WestJet expects to launch next year.
The Calgary-based airline announced Tuesday that it will take delivery of up to 45 of the Bombardier Q400 Next Generation planes over the next six years. They will be used for a new regional service that WestJet expects to launch next year.
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I love those 30 seat TPs! But as much as I love them, I find it very difficult for a new project to even see the light of day without a big order.
And that order needs to come from a big player or players, just like happened with the last 19/30-seat generation. And then, over the years, those frames will steer to the smaller airlines and start ups. Just like they do today with those SF34, B1900, SW4, DHC8 etc.
And that order needs to come from a big player or players, just like happened with the last 19/30-seat generation. And then, over the years, those frames will steer to the smaller airlines and start ups. Just like they do today with those SF34, B1900, SW4, DHC8 etc.
And that order needs to come from a big player or players, just like happened with the last 19/30-seat generation.
They were in that market once, that doesn't necessarily mean they want to be again.
There is no evidence that 19/30 seats is the market Saab are looking at, that's simply an assumption.
They were in that market once, that doesn't necessarily mean they want to be again.
They were in that market once, that doesn't necessarily mean they want to be again.
Last edited by twochai; 26th Jun 2012 at 01:36.