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AF 447 Thread No. 8

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Old 7th May 2012, 05:00
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Before there was loss of situational awareness of nose attitude, there was loss of situational awareness of altitude.

It is unimaginable to me that anyone who thinks they are a competent IFR capable pilot could completely lose the bubble on this, yet both PF and PNF allowed the altitude to get completely away from them and made almost no effort to put the aircraft on altitude. With the gain in potential energy came a loss of kinetic energy and this finally led to a stall.

The only thing that makes sense is that the roll problems were so concerning, that both pilots concentrated on that to the exclusion of their altitude scans.
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Old 7th May 2012, 10:37
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CONF iture
Human factors are the vital things to consider here - how the crew reacted to the situation. The sidestick/yoke thing is just window dressing with no real relevance to the accident. There were so many other inputs the crew could have obtained without reference to a hypothetical yoke. What makes you think that given their inability to access the information they had available that a yoke would have made any difference? What you posit is a wish state - you wish that a yoke would have provided the solution because your prejudices are inclined that way. I have no problem with you preferring the yoke but once you depart from the objective standpoint you end up in the area of speculation. We do know the following - the sidestick works and works safely. There are thousands of examples flying around at the moment. The yoke also works and works safely. Like the sidestick it does not guarantee that if a PF does something strange the PNF will react. It is not about being able to see and we have examples of where the PNF could see the yoke and did not act. I would also suggest you consider this point. In a high stress situation your interpretation of the actuallity may be considerably different to what things are. That is why the scan is so important - your instruments will tell you what is actually going on not what you believe the position of the stick is. We have a flight crew non performance here and given the evidence we have this crew would have not been able to deal with the situation no matter what their input device was. That is the sad reality.
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Old 7th May 2012, 10:57
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RAeS conference

This will be too long for a single post, but I think some of the comments will resonate with some contributors ...

Part A
On 20-21 March the Royal Aeronautical Society held its first 'The Aircraft Commander in the 21st Century' conference. Organised by the RAeS Flight Operations Group, the conference sought to explore the changing role of the aircraft commander, particularly as civil airliners get ever more automated and complex. This issue has recently been thrown into sharp focus, as incidents such as Qantas QF32 and Air France AF447 have demonstrated differing responses from pilots to ever more complex aircraft.

In particular, the industry now is reassessing the training given to pilots. A major theme that emerged from the conference was that, in the past 20 years, pilots have been taught to 'Follow the ECAM [(Electronic Centralised Aircraft Monitor]' - the computerised glass display that in Airbus aircraft (and Boeing aircraft as the EICAS Engine Indicating and Crew Alerting System) which shows critical engine and systems information. While this ECAM display makes life easy in many respects, (but which), if followed blindly, can lead to disaster. Previous training, said one speaker, relied on following the ECAM procedure step-by-step and pilots 'never considered not doing the procedure'.

This issue of displays showing spurious information was highlighted graphically by the keynote speaker at the conference Captain David Evans who, as a Qantas A380 training and check captain, was one of the five flight deck pilots who successfully resolved the QF32 incident in November 2010 after the 02 Trent engine suffered an uncontained failure. With the ECAM 'information overload' deluging the crew with a barrage of error messages the experienced captains had to sort through and examine what these meant for the aircraft. In particular, the ECAM recommended that the crew shift the fuel balance from one wing to another, as an error message said 'wings not balanced' as the imbalance limit had been exceeded. However, the reason why the aircraft was becoming unbalanced was that there was a serious fuel leak caused by the exploding engine - a situation that was obvious to anyone looking out of the window and seeing the damaged left hand wing leaking fuel.

Yet, had the crew followed procedure to the letter instead of 'using the force' and disregarding the computer, they would have ended up pumping fuel into a leaking fuel tank with consequences. At the very least this would have dramatically shortened the available time for the crew to think through and solve the problem.

Reliance and dependence that the computer always knows best can be dangerous. As Captain Evans notes: "What needs to be brought back into the skies is a 'healthy scepticism' about technology". This view was echoed in a later presentation by Captain Scott Martin, an experimental test pilot at Gulfstream, who said the correct approach was to treat the cockpit automation
'like a third pilot' but to be prepared to question it if it was not making sense. In the final analysis, says Evans - 'airmanship' or 'does this seem sensible?' should trump any automated ECAM/EICAS messages.

Yet this natural suspicion of technology runs counter to the future generations of pilots who will be drawn from today's 'Generation Y and Z' now at college or school. As Evans and others point out, these future captains born in the 1980s and 90s, while being able to grasp new technology and systems far quicker than their predecessors as well as absorb new information, will also, growing up with computers, iPads and smart phones, instinctively trust technology more.

The problem is not only one of younger pilots relying on technology too much but also of older pilots who may be losing touch with basic flying skills after years of relying on the autopilot. Though aircraft accidents remain rare - a noteworthy statistic from the conference showed that while the most common incident was a runway incursion/penetration - the most lethal in terms of lives lost is now loss of control in flight (LOC-I).

Lessons from QF32 are already making their way into Qantas' training. At the conference Captain Evans explained how Qantas has started to introduce simulator scenarios based on real (but rare) scenarios to expose pilots to difficult command decisions.
One example chosen for a recent simulator LOFT (Line oriented flight training) exercise was the scenario of flying an A380 through a volcano ash cloud, which could simultaneously set off fire alarms on the flightdeck and elsewhere (thanks to smoke detectors) as well as flame out the engines.
In the simulator exercise, pitot tubes would also be blocked by ash.
So what happened? With smoke warnings, engines flamed out, the airspeed went blank and the aircraft went into direct law with no autopilot. In particular, Evans noted, the ECAM logic prioritised the multiple ( spurious) fire warnings over the engine flame out warning. However for the pilots, understanding that the ash had caused the smoke detectors to trip, the priority should be to restart the engines.
This simulator exercise clearly demonstrates to pilots how a highly automated aircraft could revert to a challenging manual flying task for the pilots - whilst simultaneously presenting them with information overload in the form of ECAM messages.
However, doing this in the sim allows them to hone their command and decision making skills in a safe environment.

Last edited by Owain Glyndwr; 7th May 2012 at 11:06. Reason: Tidying up
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Old 7th May 2012, 11:00
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RAeS conference

Here is Part B

Emirates Airlines is also adapting its approach to training in the light of recent events and is aiming at the highest standards, a point well made by Captain Martin Mahoney, SVP Flight Training at Emirates. To that end, the carrier has introduced a 'basic aerodynamics' course to refresh new entrants about the fundamentals of flight. Intriguingly, it has also reversed the trend for distance learning in favour of a return to 'chalk and blackboard' classroom learning.
Why? Captain Mahoney contends that not only do pilots learn better by being in the presence of other pilots (as well as reinforcing the pilot culture - an important factor in multicultural airline like Emirates) - but also in that the instructor can watch the students' eyes to see if the lessons have really understood. . In addition, Emirates is also boosting its pilots' skills with two manual handling simulator sessions every year for new commanders.

The airline has also introduced personality profiles for command upgrade candidates which are pilot's eyes only (management does not see them) and which provides potential captains with individual, practical feedback on their leadership style as well as strengths and weaknesses. However, Captain Mahoney had harsh words for ICAO's Level 4 English standards - arguing that they are "not worth the paper they are written on". In fact, he revealed that recent simulator tests of pilots from an unnamed defunct European charter carrier saw a 50% failure rate due to their English not being up to the standard needed by Emirates

Though the flightdeck is regarded as the gold standard for CRM (crew resource management), there maybe lessons from the medical sector, especially from surgeons, who have a similar high-skilled job with large responsibilities and operate in teams.
Indeed, Professor Rhona Flin, an industrial psychology expert at the University of Aberdeen observed that that in order to access and fully exploit the 'working memory' (analytical, which experts now believe can hold up to four 'chunks' at the same time), it may be a case of the 'slower the better'. She noted that one surgeon had once been given advice "Don't just do something, stand there", indicating that slowing down rather than rushing into action may contribute to better decision making in medical operations.
Though this may not be possible in some circumstances (Captain Sullenberger's Hudson ditching and the BA 777 Heathrow landing short of the runway needing fast reactions), taking a step back from the flashing displays and warnings may actually improve critical thinking. Was it perhaps due to the extra critical thinking time brought to the QF32 incident by five experienced captains that resolved the problem successfully?
Conversely, when thinking time is limited decision-making relies on long-term memory containing models of the world that we use, together with procedures and experience. These might be characterised by 'the gut feeling' or 'we've always done it this way'. This may work in some instances but, in more novel or unexpected situations, may make pilots (or surgeons) make the wrong choices or continue down an incorrect path - even when it is obvious in hindsight that the decision was the wrong one.

That aircraft (and crews) are now safer than ever is not in doubt and the statistics bear this out. However, the aviation industry is always striving for perfection. Furthermore, there is a growing unease that the previous ways of learning (and command) need adapting to new and future generations of automated aircraft. Ex-military pilots with 'nerves of steel', experience of flying at the edges of the envelope yet unwilling to talk to juniors have given way to systems managers and team players. However, these new pilots, fluent in the latest crew management skills, may also be lacking some basic 'stick and rudder' skills and be too willing to trust the computer.

The highly automated aircraft also provides fresh challenges. The issue is not the technology itself but the gulf between normal and non-normal (i.e. emergency) operations. In normal operations a highly automated airliner is easier to fly than previous generations of aircraft but, in a non-normal situation, it is comparatively harder.
It is this gulf between normal and non- normal which is the issue and is so difficult to train for because of the extreme rarity of non-normal emergencies. As one speaker pointed out, in the old days he had flown as a third pilot observing the crew routine and watching them deal with multiple engine failures as part of his apprenticeship to command. Today, a trainee captain riding a jump seat as an observer would be extremely unlikely to witness an in-flight emergency to 'learn' from the more experienced crews.
In short, some forward-thinking airlines are already adapting their approach to training and command issues in making sure that the aircraft commander of the future has the correct mix of technical and non-technical skills and, more importantly, knows when to ignore, question or override the computers. As Captain David Evans observes, the commander must: "work out
the solutions with the help of technology, not depend on technology for the solution".
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Old 7th May 2012, 11:12
  #465 (permalink)  
 
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whatīs going on...

OC
your instruments will tell you what is actually going on not what you believe the position of the stick is.
absolutely correct, but.....


..........the instruments dont tell, why something is happening.

A climbing indication can be caused by an intentional stick input, by turbulence, by an updraft, or by a stick input seconds before. The aircraft can still be in a climb, the pitch can still be positive, the VS can still be positive, and the Stick is in neutral or even forward.

In the F4 we had no autothrottle, but a possibility of autoacceleration of the engine with certain malfunctions (aux air doors failed). The RPM increased to 100%, but we could see the unchanged throttle position and that therefore it was a malfunction and not an inadvertent advance of power, which caused the RPM to rise. Had our throttles in the front and backseat not been interconnected, a rise in RPM observed on the rpm gauge in both cockpits could have been a malfunction or a willing act of the other guy.

In case of AF447 it might have been helpful for the PNF and the captain to know, what kind of SS input the PF was doing in assisting the process of correlating the behaviour of the aircraft with the !!!wrong!!! inputs of the PF, thus aiding in failure assesment and leading to problem solving. Same might be true for the THS trim position as well as the Throttle position.

As long as the PF is doing what PNF would do himself, as long as he is acting in the expectation pattern, the instruments give all necessary information. But it gets tricky, when the instruments do not correlate with the expectation pattern and there is no other means to crosscheck why that would be the case, because the instruments only tell you what is happening.

Now you have to evaluate what caused the discrepancy from the expected, turbulence? flight control malfunction? updraft? indicator malfunction? unintended flightcontrol input? Deliberate flight control input?

OC
We have a flight crew non performance here and given the evidence we have this crew would have not been able to deal with the situation no matter what their input device was. That is the sad reality.
That might be true, unfortunately.

OC
I have no problem with you preferring the yoke but once you depart from the objective standpoint you end up in the area of speculation.
Imho the standpoints donīt differ that much from each other concerning objectivity and speculation. Nobody knows what would have happened, when............
We know however what had happened with AF447, and that one was not desireable as many other accidents with or without SS / Yoke.

So it is worth to think over all issues, might they be liked or not.
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Old 7th May 2012, 12:14
  #466 (permalink)  
 
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Indeed some interesting points - however, I would go as far as to suggest that one shouldn't be operating on an expectation pattern. My instructors always taught me that you don't expect anything but you accept what the instruments tell you. Once you start to expect you run the risk of deviating from how things are and getting into a mess. Of course this may be different in military aviation but this is what I learned. Knowing what is often a vital factor and could be said to have more importance than why. The aircraft is climbing too quickly therefore put the nose down. Understanding why it is climbing can come late I would think.
I would agree with you about speculation but here the evidence points to human factors and crew non performance in such a way that the input device was peripheral and would have remained so no matter what. It does make one wonder how these poor people ever got onto an aircraft flight deck. Given, for example, that there seems to be no attempt to diagnose the initial issue in accordance with SOPs how would the input device have made any difference? In my opinion the breakdown in everything related to flight management and procedure was so complete it would overwhelm any system. That is why a discussion of whether a yoke would have helped is futile.
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Old 7th May 2012, 12:44
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Originally Posted by HazelNuts39
At first sight, this would seem to be preferable to the BUSS in an UAS situation. What are the disadvantages?
It's wrong! Who wrote that? I did?!? Oh well... What I wrote was very simplified, and most probably oversimplified, illustration of the way low speed cues work on modern EFIS aeroplanes, without the need to know what's the actual weight. It was not meant to be taken literally as be-all and end-all definition of system operation. I strongly suspect your further line of thought, about showing wrong stall warning speed when IAS gets unreliable is correct and covers the reason why low speed cue gets shut off when IAS data is lost. BUSS is basically the same thing you are proposing: replacing IAS with AoA information. If someone said that having AoA display is great because fighter jocks use it would have shown impressive misunderstanding of the way things work in aviation. Yes, combat pilots of last thirtysomething years usually do have a little gizmo making their life easier during approach and landing, it's either doughnut & chevrons type AoA indexer or AoA bracket on HUD. It is there to make their already complicated life easier by reducing the need to accurately calculate their approach speed for actual weight plus any effect from external stores. No, it is not 100% reliable as AoA vanes do get stuck or birdstricken then it's reversion to monsieur Pitot again. Of course, one has to be proficient in its use, which can only be achieved through practice. It is of utmost importance to know that yellow light means stick back, red stick forward, not the other way around.

In transport aviation, we are more concerned with field and cruise performance maximization than with the shooting down the intruders or bombing the bunkers while dodging the flak. We're not great buyers of AoA gauges as airspeed indicators let us do that part of our job more precisely. What we do when we lose IAS and there's no AoA gauge to save our flying butts? We (well, most of us, most of the time) revert to old fashioned discipline, taught already on the basic trainers, called "pitch and power". I had to demonstrate safe visual circuit in C-150, with ASI covered, just using pitch and power to get my PPL and I'm pretty sure it wasn't just me.

Originally Posted by Rudderrudderrat
The Airbus side stick system lacks the "position of the control surface feed back loop" to the pilot.
Uh-huh. I can only imagine the rage, fury, indignation of the "If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going" brigade when Boeing abandons simple stick-to-control flight control arrangement and replaces it with hydraulic monstrosity that requires air data driven artificial pitch feel to be effective. If the day comes, we'd better hide the fact from them manual control freaks, lest we risk the riots.

Originally Posted by Organfreak
Cost should never trump safety.
In ideal world. I like better this one, it's more realistic:

Originally Posted by Author unknown, please help
Safety begins as a perceived value of human life
It's wonderfully politically incorrect yet it perfectly explains regional safety statistics.

Nevertheless, suggestion that Airbus FBW raison d'etre is cost and that cheaper must be less safe is completely misinformed or an indicator of recklessly pushed agenda. Or both.

Originally Posted by CONF iture
If I had to enter that flight deck at that time, the first obvious clue would have been that full back yoke at 350 ... now call me unprofessional.
Is this really what you're trying to do? Eliciting certain reaction? Well, it's nothing personal, but IMHO airline pilot who enters the flight deck in night IMC and does not look for the clues on the instrument panel displays unprofessional behaviour, definition of which is not entirely arbitrary as not adhering to professional standards in aviation can be lethal.

Originally Posted by CONF iture
Sidestick Airbus concept suppress information of great value for a crew : It is a fact.
It is not a fact; it is an opinion. In natural and technical sciences, opinions do not become facts just because some anonymous posters or mediapersonnae repeat them ad nauseam.

Now find me someone who really is an expert on the aeroplane flight controls and who can coherently, reasonably and non-anonymously state what you have written.

Originally Posted by CONF iture
What is more sensible and necessary, is to openly discuss what the sidestick Airbus concept has suppressed. It is the role of Airbus, it is the responsibility of the BEA. But Old Carthusian can sleep well, never the BEA will approach the subject, far too sensitive, and if ever they do at my great surprise, it will be to better discard it as a contributory factor.

... Report in June ?
Completely unnecessary ad hominem directed at Old Carthusian.

Anyway, BEA or any other safety agency does not give a rat's stern about PPRuNe or any other anonymous pilots' forum. Those who are not on PPRuNe to "elicit certain reactions" and thus receive their pay through others' responses, but rather really seek an improvement in safety, should submit their concerns direct to BEA.

However, there are two problems: you can't submit your theory anonymously. Second is that theory that in multi-crew enviroment, the assisting pilot must always know what is the control position of the flying pilot runs afoul of the basic instrument flying model of closed loop feedback via instruments, so there's good chance BEA will simply bin the submission. Of course, some sensitive souls might see it as an evidence to conspiracy.

Originally Posted by Lyman
The evidence is yelling at you.....
Nope. The evidence, so far, has been neatly and unemotionally put down in the three interim reports. Only ones yelling are those PPRuNers who are taking some evidence out of context and ignore lots of other to push their own unsubstantiated view on the matter. Seems that some are preparing to pour their indignation on BEA's findings when the final report is out. Certain Teutonic gentleman has already warned us of such an approach:

Originally Posted by Friedrich Nietzsche
The worst readers are those who behave like plundering troops: they take away a few things they can use, dirty and confound the remainder, and revile the whole.
Anyway, there were 32 cases of at least two pitots blocked on 330/340 before AF447. Did we discuss them here on PPRuNE?
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Old 7th May 2012, 14:23
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Clandestino said:
....suggestion that Airbus FBW raison d'etre is cost and that cheaper must be less safe is completely misinformed or an indicator of recklessly pushed agenda. Or both.
OK, I accept the contention that I am, er, "completely misinformed," but, pray tell us, what are the advantages to the AB sidestick system if cost (weight savings) are removed as a factor? That is the only justification I've ever seen for such a design. Sure, it must be great to have a work table to fold down, but, what else? If you want to attack my opinion, please supply some solid facts. (add "it's OK, I'm not mad at you" emoticon)

Now, as for Mr. Glyndwr's contribution....
Thank you! It's a relief, to me, to see these factors being considered so sensibly. I say this because no-one has seen fit to comment on what could have started a very interesting discussion on something besides side-sticks and incompetent pilots.

DW:
OK, OK, I DO live in Boeing's back yard (and I don't mean Chicago!), and have for 60 years, but they get no halos or blank checks (cheques?) from me!
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Old 7th May 2012, 15:09
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Originally Posted by Clandestino
Basically, low speed awareness tapes are just alpha information superimposed on speed tape. (...) It's interesting to watch it bounce in turbulent approach or climb in turns, just as Alpha max red strip does on A320.
Originally Posted by Clandestino
It's wrong! Who wrote that? I did?!? Oh well... What I wrote was very simplified, and most probably oversimplified, illustration of the way low speed cues work on modern EFIS aeroplanes, without the need to know what's the actual weight. It was not meant to be taken literally as be-all and end-all definition of system operation. I strongly suspect your further line of thought, about showing wrong stall warning speed when IAS gets unreliable is correct and covers the reason why low speed cue gets shut off when IAS data is lost. BUSS is basically the same thing you are proposing: replacing IAS with AoA information.
Could we look at this more objectively? I'm aware that the 'low speed awareness' markings are fundamentally different from Airbus' markings of 'characteristic speeds'. But when airspeed has 'gone south' and in Alternate Law, may be the 'low speed awareness' is better? While the speed tape is faulty (maybe it should be 'greyed'), the 'low speed awareness' tape is valid, correctly displaying the stall margin. It would have informed the pilots of the 'validity' of the first brief stall warnings, that they were transient and no reason for concern at that time, and would have informed them of the approaching stall warning and stall later on. Would it, by confirming the PNF's feeling that things were going 'the wrong way', have convinced him to step in with more determination?

It doesn't have the big drawbacks of the BUSS that you lose all three ADR's for the remainder of the flight, and that it is virtually useless above (IIRC) FL250.

Last edited by HazelNuts39; 7th May 2012 at 16:53. Reason: Added sentence in italics
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Old 7th May 2012, 15:12
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Clandestino
Anyway, there were 32 cases of at least two pitots blocked on 330/340 before AF447. Did we discuss them here on PPRuNe?
No .. neither the BEA or DGAC for those on AF aircraft that were involved in this type of incident
PPrune , BEA and DGAC begin to discuss after AF447 case
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Old 7th May 2012, 15:44
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@Clandestino

Quote:
Anyway, there were 32 cases of at least two pitots blocked on 330/340 before AF447. Did we discuss them here on PPRuNe?


And where were the wise ones? "no harm no foul" ? PPretty myopic, imho.
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Old 7th May 2012, 16:05
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Originally Posted by jcjeant
No .. neither the BEA or DGAC for those on AF aircraft that were involved in this type of incident
PPrune , BEA and DGAC begin to discuss after AF447 case
Another one who believes that things they do not know about does not exist. Those who do not know how much they do not know, usually believes they know much.

Add petty francophobia to the mix and much is explained.
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Old 7th May 2012, 16:38
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Re: Myopia. Mr. Magoo, et al.

To those who believe that the Aviation industry is proactively concerned with Safety issues to the exclusion of profit, convenience, (profit), scheduling (profit), and low maintenance (profit), a klarion: Not Always....

Then there's Hubris, and arrogance. On top of Tradition, Culture, and Politics.

No one who is informed will clamor for perfection, it is not in the cards. We rely on others to assess our level of risk, and for 99 per cent of the Public, ignorance is bliss.

When Pilots go activist, pay attention. After 447, and it became clear that UAS was lurking out there for the unwary (which was everyone, by definition), a labor action was called, and wot, ho, get out the spanner Clive, (Laurent, Kim, Robin, et al).

Push, Shove, Pull. Politics is alot like flying....and verse for vise.

Was anyone not astounded that Airbus had the clout and power to demand a memorandum from BEA prior to the Show? I was not, anyone?

How much clearer can the rules be? Pay the Fife and drum, call the tune.....

Frankly, the more passion due prior ignorance, the better. Safety is directly proportional to the clamor of the client....especially so when the responsibles are not paying attention.

addend... PJ2. I included the Radome involvement in UAS generically, and here's why....

If the Final report is narrow, and addresses a limited number of issues, so as to frustrate the need for further understanding v/v the way a plane flies, and falls, more's the pity. UAS should be completely embraced and understood, to squeeeze it into the vernacular. How many airline pilots are fluent in Radome loss? It is an opportunity to further understanding of the event and its genesis, in this case and/or others. The readership of this document will be large, and I promise you, if stones are left unturned there will be pushback... It is in the interests of all for the report to be voluminous....

just my opinion....

Last edited by Lyman; 7th May 2012 at 17:05.
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Old 7th May 2012, 16:49
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This is a red letter day, because, for once, I totally agree with Lyman.

Sincerely,
Mr. Magoo's Seeing-Eye Dog

P.S. Arf.
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Old 7th May 2012, 17:00
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Originally Posted by Lyman
To those who believe that the Aviation industry is proactively concerned with Safety issues to the exclusion of profit, convenience, (profit), scheduling (profit), and low maintenance (profit), ...
I don't believe that it is, nor that it should be.
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Old 7th May 2012, 17:06
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Heartily agree.
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Old 7th May 2012, 17:10
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Originally Posted by Lyman
Was anyone not astounded that Airbus had the clout and power to demand a memorandum from BEA prior to the Show?
Nothing shady about that though. It's not like they asked the BEA to falsify anything, just make public the information that they already knew - i.e. that no evidence of technical malfunction had been found.

The use of language by some on here (e.g. "demand" and "suppress") is very telling. "Request" would have been more valid and correct in this case.
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Old 7th May 2012, 17:35
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@Lyman:

Was anyone not astounded that Airbus had the clout and power to demand a memorandum from BEA prior to the Show? I was not, anyone?
Neither was I,

If experts are convinced the apparatus didn't fail, there is nothing wrong with protecting your business.
Boeing will do exactly the same when appropriate to Boeing.

If a serious flaw was detected the world would have know about it months ago.
(Like the Thales probes)
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Old 7th May 2012, 17:59
  #479 (permalink)  
 
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OC
Indeed some interesting points - however, I would go as far as to suggest that one shouldn't be operating on an expectation pattern
.

Let me explain what is meant by expectation pattern.
On your instruments you are flying straight and level and unaccelerated. You want to climb and for that you pull the stick back some amount and you expect the corresponding action of your aircraft on the instruments or by other appropriate means. Reaching the desired altitude you put the stick forward and you expect the pitch to decrease, the climb to stop and you check that again on the instruments, do some necessary corrections until you are again in level unaccelerated flight. By the way, if you didnīt expect an speed decrease due to climb, you probably forgot to adjust power.

If you are doing this on Automatics, you turn the necessary switches or / and pusch the buttons and expect again the automatics doing same as above, you monitor the action and the outcome on your instruments.

When PF is flying, PNF expects the PF to do all the steps above either in Automode or manual until the desired outcome is achieved, and again PNF will monitor on the instruments the correct application and the outcome.

If PNF does not expect a climb from autopilot or from PF, because it was neither intended nor anounced, and the instruments indicate a climb, he will not know, wether it is an instrument malfunction, turbulence, an autopilot malfunction, an intended or unintended climb by the PF. But the knowledge what caused the climb might be necessary to apply the correct action.

Letīs use speed as a further example to make my point clear:
Again straight and level, unaccelerating flight. On the instruments the speed tape is indicating an unplanned decrease in speed. Again it could be due to UAS (do nothing), due to unintentional climb (stop climb, descent back down), thrust change, autothrust malfunction (use manual thrust, set correct setting). Sure you check the other intruments, which will tell you why the speed is decreasing. This one shows, that you can get the necessary information of "what and why" from the instruments, but that will not work as nicely with the control around the axis of the airframe (pitch, bank, yaw), because the instruments only will tell you what and not always why.

OC
My instructors always taught me that you don't expect anything but you accept what the instruments tell you. Once you start to expect you run the risk of deviating from how things are and getting into a mess.
If we can agree to replace "expecting" with "guessing", iīm 100% with you.

But to control the effectiveness of an input, you have to rely on an corresponding reaction pattern. Simplest one being taught in the first flying hour: Pull on yoke, houses get smaller; push yoke, houses get bigger; Yoke left, house left side; yoke right, houses right side; throttle forward (depending on aircraft) engine noise louder, throttle backward, engine more quiet.

OC
Our instructors didnīt have to emphasize the why after the what, because we had the yoke or stick in our hands and knew why we where off the desired parameters.
Ever trained unusual attitudes with closed eyes? Instructor mistrims the aircraft in pitch and yaw and hands you the aircraft over while hanging upside down? You see the situation on the instruments and make the appropriate flightcontrol inputs, but you stop fightig the aircraft during recoveryy the moment you recognize the wrong trim (the why), because now you know why it handles that bad and you know the correct solution.


OC
Of course this may be different in military aviation but this is what I learned.
No, it is not. Guessing kills you already in peacetime albeit in war.

OC
Knowing what is often a vital factor and could be said to have more importance than why.
That is absolutely correct, but it does not make the "knowing why" unnecessary. It is not an either / or. It is a sequential thing. You have to know "what is happening" and the best path for an appropriate correction is to "know why" it happend.

It makes life easier.

Last edited by RetiredF4; 7th May 2012 at 19:20.
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Old 7th May 2012, 18:22
  #480 (permalink)  
PJ2
 
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Owain Glyndwr;
I don't think PJ2 will be upset if I say that in my conversations with him he confirmed that on at least one occasion he executed a recovery from 30 deg AoA using 10 deg ND pitch - it took about 15000 ft.
Not at all, as such was the case in most scenarios we did. The 20,000ft + scenario had a number of factors which delayed recovery including a NU SS held, and thrust in the CLB detent.



What I have learned in these discussions with Owain Glyndwr and HN39 are the aerodynamics behind recovery and that one need not necessarily be extraordinarily aggressive with the airplane to effect a recovery. Now, maintaining a 10deg ND pitch initially required full-forward SS. The FPA indicator moved upwards from about 30deg ND to < 10degND at a rate of about 1 to 2deg/sec, more rapidly as the 10deg's was approached.

These understandings are not normally conveyed or taught in initial or recurrent groundschool or simulator sessions.

Even for those who have a deeper-than-expected understanding of high-altitude, high-Mach Number, swept-wing aerodynamics, I think there is great value for airline pilots in the following, which is I believe a rare glimpse into aerodynamic thinking which is quite apart from our traditional understanding autoflight systems and SOPs...

From Owain Glyndwr's Post #175
Suppose we start with pitch +15, Gamma -25, AoA +40 and instantaneously pitch
down through 25 deg to -10. (this is a thought experiment so we can do
that):

AoA remains at +40 for the moment as you suggest, but that means gamma goes
to -50. EAS hasn't changed, neither have CL and Cd at constant AoA so drag and
lift are unchanged. However we now have a large additional gravity component so
the aircraft will accelerate in absolute terms, i.e.TAS will increase, again as
suggested in a later post.

But in addition the aircraft is now descending more rapidly into denser air
so there is a double effect on EAS, and the thrust is also increasing due to
altitude effects which also helps a bit although this is not anything like as
important as the gravity effect since the maximum thrust one might get at say
FL350 is only about 7%W whereas a 25 deg FPA shift is worth 42%W.

If EAS increases at constant AoA the aircraft will develop an upwards
acceleration normal to the flight path and thence an upward velocity component
which, with the increased airspeed will result in a reduction in FPA. You can
see this in HN39's traces. [It will also of course experience an increase in
drag which partially offsets the benefits, but I think this only partially
offsets them]

A reduction in FPA, WITH PITCH HELD CONSTANT, will
give a reduction in AoA.

Cd is very sensitive to AoA above the stall, so the drag reduces more than
the effect of increased EAS and the whole response is "speed unstable" as it
were, with an increasing acceleration and reduction in AoA as time goes on until
the AoA is reduced to below S/W limits.
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