CAT 2/3 Question
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The land of the Incredible
Age: 56
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CAT 2/3 Question
Q: It's borderline CAT 2 conditions at an airport equipped for CAT 3B. Is there any harm planning and executing a CAT3B rather than a CAT 2?
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: London
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it is one thing having the equipment, but having it switched on and offering full protection is quite another., you may not be able to guarantee roll out guidance for example if taxying aircraft are nearby.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely the protected area is the same for CAT 2 & CAT 3. Therefore that should not be a problem. LVO at an airport is LVO. They do have a strange philosophy bin Germany. The met is CAT 2, so the ATIS says the airport is CAT 2. I've asked for a CAT approach and they reply from area control was "the weather is only CAT 2." They do not seem to understand. Thank heavens that the TWR does and they say you do your own thing as LVO is LVO. It would be different if the airfield is only CAT 2 anyway, or the equipment has been downgraded.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: London
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
he didn't say LVO's were being offered or operated but the airfield was cat 3 equipped. I assumed cat3 wasn't actually being offered.
are low vis procedures in force, backup generators on, monitoring in place etc.?
you can use a higher decision height and let it land whilst monitoring it yourself but of course thats not cat3.
are low vis procedures in force, backup generators on, monitoring in place etc.?
you can use a higher decision height and let it land whilst monitoring it yourself but of course thats not cat3.
An Airport is either operating Low Vis or it isn't.
Cat 2 is a low vis operation, so if conditions are below Cat 1, it's a low vis op.
If the runway is Cat 3 and the operator is approved for that operation at that Airport, you can fly a Cat 3 approach.
Cat 2 is a low vis operation, so if conditions are below Cat 1, it's a low vis op.
If the runway is Cat 3 and the operator is approved for that operation at that Airport, you can fly a Cat 3 approach.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: The Land Downunder
Posts: 765
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The couple of airlines I have worked for have always had an SOP of flying the approach at the lowest approach capability that you have. So when Low Vis Ops are in force I would always fly a CATIII B No DH if the airport is equiped. The actual RVR is only important in working out what 'reversions' you have i.e. if you have a downgrade from CATIII to CATII, do you have the ability to carry out a CATII with the current RVR?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airmanship
Airmanship would dictate you select an approach which gives you the best chances of landing.
you should obviously consider notams, and SOP's. would there be any / great differences in your procedures for CAT II/III ?
Even stable "CAT II" wx can change from time to time,
you should obviously consider notams, and SOP's. would there be any / great differences in your procedures for CAT II/III ?
Even stable "CAT II" wx can change from time to time,
I'm told that the Germans insisting they are 'CAT 2 only' when in LVO is more to do with separation on the approach (more sep reqd in CAT 3) than how you actually organise yourself in the aircraft. At ports such as FRA this would make quite a difference at busy times.
Perhaps an ATC person could illuminate.
Perhaps an ATC person could illuminate.
try to explain to your company management when your aircraft goes off the grass on roll out.
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Formerly of Nam
Posts: 1,595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Been borderline CAT 2/3 quite a few times and found if I stick
to CAT 3 (assuming port is to 3 standard and so is the plane)
I can downgrade to CAT 2 if something screws up.
to CAT 3 (assuming port is to 3 standard and so is the plane)
I can downgrade to CAT 2 if something screws up.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Germany
Age: 47
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can downgrade to CAT 2 if something screws up.
so when something "screws up" with the CATIII app its a far better idea to go around than take it manual and "downgrade"on "borderline CATII" like you wrote.
of course the whole discussion is only valid if the AC has an autoland capability.
cheers
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
in real life CATIII requires autoland and CATII not.
Anyway, if the ATIS says CAT II low visibility procedures in progress we set up for a normal fail operational autoland anyway.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Unionville, PA, USA
Age: 76
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aerobat77
Not true. 27R KPHL requires auto land for CAT2. Most CAT2s in USA have RVR MINS 1000' w/autoland, 1200' without.
in the computer game without a doubt. in real life CATIII requires autoland and CATII not.
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: somewhere
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Absolutely no harm. Below 1200rvr airports equipped prepare themselves to execute cat approaches. If you are saying its cat2 the visibility must be between 1600 and 1200 which in a real world you WILL see the runway before landing and see the rccl and tdzl before minimums.
In my airline we prepare to the toughest conditions when we do lvp. Why? Because if conditions get better we dont care but if they get worse we are ready. That is the same reason cat2 does not need to be autoland
In my airline we prepare to the toughest conditions when we do lvp. Why? Because if conditions get better we dont care but if they get worse we are ready. That is the same reason cat2 does not need to be autoland
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Unionville, PA, USA
Age: 76
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Foxhunter, I thought PHL 27R had to be a manual landing, due to an offset LLZ?
I had to do one last month.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: england
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Foxhunter, very interesting.....our company information is totally opposite!
We have to plan an autoland off any Cat 2 approach; our company 'NOTAM' information tells us that the approach to 27R is offset, therefore we're unable to make a Cat 2 approach to that runway.
However, having operated in good vis to that runway, it doesn't appear offset to me!
Regards, heavy landing.
We have to plan an autoland off any Cat 2 approach; our company 'NOTAM' information tells us that the approach to 27R is offset, therefore we're unable to make a Cat 2 approach to that runway.
However, having operated in good vis to that runway, it doesn't appear offset to me!
Regards, heavy landing.
