Use of TOGA with Flex speeds
Yes Sabena????? Mmmmm went broke a long time ago didn't it???
Seriously I'm not criticizing you at all my little French speaking chappy!!
If that's what you want to do then just do it.
As for me, don't criticize my airmanship choices or my judgement thanks all the same. If I choose to re work the T/O speeds instead of blasting off into the sky then so be it. If you are behind then WAIT.
Seriously I'm not criticizing you at all my little French speaking chappy!!
If that's what you want to do then just do it.
As for me, don't criticize my airmanship choices or my judgement thanks all the same. If I choose to re work the T/O speeds instead of blasting off into the sky then so be it. If you are behind then WAIT.
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Hey de facto,
I didn't realise STD was a race.
As long as you make space for those of us who are ready to pass - then fill your boots.
@ nitpicker330,
How about you plan for both Flex & TOGA at the gate and note down the figures - so we don't have to WAIT simply because you're not ready?
At age 63,,,believe me youll still be at the gate while ill be lining up for takeoff.
...ill deal with the delay to have speeds matching the thrust setting used.
I cover my a@@@ then i think about traffic behind..
I cover my a@@@ then i think about traffic behind..
@ nitpicker330,
If I choose to re work the T/O speeds instead of blasting off into the sky then so be it. If you are behind then WAIT.
Jusus H. In more than 3000 Jet T/O's I've only ever had to re do the numbers because it was Wet a couple of times. In those cases we didn't hold anyone up.
So the chances of me holding you up are almost nil. Live with it.
So the chances of me holding you up are almost nil. Live with it.
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As always, people start hitting below the belt when they notice that they run out of arguments 
. Oh well, I've seen that happen here so many times that it stopped amazing me.
Wrong again! 
Check Wikipedia I you want to try again to guess whant my first language is.
Mais bon, c'est vrai, même si ce n'est pas ma langue maternelle, je me debrouille plutôt bien en français aussi.
Google translate
. Oh well, I've seen that happen here so many times that it stopped amazing me.
Originally Posted by nitpicker330
...little French speaking chappy...
Check Wikipedia I you want to try again to guess whant my first language is.
Mais bon, c'est vrai, même si ce n'est pas ma langue maternelle, je me debrouille plutôt bien en français aussi.
Google translate
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Official reference
7.1.4. Flexible Takeoff Procedure
To carry out a flexible takeoff, which is always at the discretion of the pilot, a flexible temperature has to be determined from an RTOW chart computed with no derate or an equivalent computerized system. This temperature value must then be entered in the MCDU (Multipurpose Control and Display Unit) during the takeoff preparation phase (Figure C31). At the brake release point, the thrust throttles must be pushed to the FLX position (Figure C32) as per the Standard Operating Procedure (SOP). TOGA thrust remains available at any moment during the takeoff phase. (Q.E.D.) But, in the event of an engine failure after V1, its selection is not required.
7.2.4. Derated Takeoff Procedure
....
Important: When a derated takeoff is carried out, TOGA thrust must never be selected until the aircraft is airborne and above the minimum flap retraction speed (“F” speed). The reason for this is that performance calculations are made for minimum control speeds, different from the ones of TOGA.
Source (already provided earlier by nitpicker330): Airbus' publication: Getting to grips with aircraft performance. on page 89 and 92.
Well, I've learned a lot. I wasn't familiar with "derated" T.O. procedures. (Never flew A330 or 340 where derated T.O.'s are available. I also didn't know it was an option on some of the A320's)
To carry out a flexible takeoff, which is always at the discretion of the pilot, a flexible temperature has to be determined from an RTOW chart computed with no derate or an equivalent computerized system. This temperature value must then be entered in the MCDU (Multipurpose Control and Display Unit) during the takeoff preparation phase (Figure C31). At the brake release point, the thrust throttles must be pushed to the FLX position (Figure C32) as per the Standard Operating Procedure (SOP). TOGA thrust remains available at any moment during the takeoff phase. (Q.E.D.) But, in the event of an engine failure after V1, its selection is not required.
7.2.4. Derated Takeoff Procedure
....
Important: When a derated takeoff is carried out, TOGA thrust must never be selected until the aircraft is airborne and above the minimum flap retraction speed (“F” speed). The reason for this is that performance calculations are made for minimum control speeds, different from the ones of TOGA.
Source (already provided earlier by nitpicker330): Airbus' publication: Getting to grips with aircraft performance. on page 89 and 92.
Well, I've learned a lot. I wasn't familiar with "derated" T.O. procedures. (Never flew A330 or 340 where derated T.O.'s are available. I also didn't know it was an option on some of the A320's)
Yes.
My point was/is that if you have time before lining up you should re work the speeds for TOGA ( in my opinion ) Of course you can increase thrust during the T/O roll anytime should things change for the worse ( W/S etc ) unless using a Derate.
My point was/is that if you have time before lining up you should re work the speeds for TOGA ( in my opinion ) Of course you can increase thrust during the T/O roll anytime should things change for the worse ( W/S etc ) unless using a Derate.
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The captains choice of TOGA is in conflict with the idea that all planes fly after Vr.
So it really doesn't matter if he gets off early or late...right? Because once the plane hit's Vr a special field is created around the aircraft that protects it from all problems.
Right?
So it really doesn't matter if he gets off early or late...right? Because once the plane hit's Vr a special field is created around the aircraft that protects it from all problems.
Right?
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Sabenaboy,,,you never flew using derate????
Anyways,thanks for the link,as usual Airbus is way ahead of boeing in terms of available info,some people are doing some good work at Airbus....
Anyways,thanks for the link,as usual Airbus is way ahead of boeing in terms of available info,some people are doing some good work at Airbus....
Last edited by de facto; 7th Mar 2012 at 10:49.
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Just follow your SOP.
My SOP says that it is no problem to use TOGA with flex speeds. It is a bonus.
Others have explained why. But if your SOP says no, then it is no.
(But I think some here might benefit from studying the manual that came with he LPC)
My SOP says that it is no problem to use TOGA with flex speeds. It is a bonus.
Others have explained why. But if your SOP says no, then it is no.
(But I think some here might benefit from studying the manual that came with he LPC
)
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Originally Posted by de facto
Sabenaboy,,,you never flew using derate????
(quoted from "getting to grips with aircraft performance" 7.2.4.):
"Derated takeoff is not available for all Airbus aircraft models . It is basic on all A330 and A340 models, but doesn’t yet exist on the other Airbus aircraft types."
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When I was a humble FO we were asked by ATC to expedite and take off on the parallel runway which was longer than the one we had the numbers for!
My Capt insisted that we recalculate even though this was a longer runway, we missed our slot! Go figure?
My Capt insisted that we recalculate even though this was a longer runway, we missed our slot! Go figure?
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And right he was.
Different Slope, different obstacles, different departure, different engine out procedures, different brief, just to name a few..
Cutting corners just lines up the holes more quickly.
Who cares about the slot?
Different Slope, different obstacles, different departure, different engine out procedures, different brief, just to name a few..
Cutting corners just lines up the holes more quickly.
Who cares about the slot?
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My Capt insisted that we recalculate even though this was a longer runway, we missed our slot! Go figure?
(Better yet, would have been to perform both calculations at the gate before pushback!)
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At KSEA we had this happen. We had a takeoff to the north and at the last minute changed our runway to the parallel which was the same length. We found the TO weights were different in a 737 because of takeoff obstacles.
The tower questioned why we had to recalculate. If you do not you are taking off with no performance data and it could bite you if something goes wrong.
The tower questioned why we had to recalculate. If you do not you are taking off with no performance data and it could bite you if something goes wrong.
