L-188 Engine Start Callouts and Correct Order?
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L-188 Engine Start Callouts and Correct Order?
Hey folks,
I've been a lurker around these parts for a while, but never posted. I've been looking for information about the Electra start procedures on the net but have been having troubles. Particularly the crew callouts during start and the correct start/shift up order.
I know a few of the callouts:
"Button in"
"Rotation"
???
???
???
"7 for 8" (Starter cutout I think?)
But I'm looking for the full lists and the RPMs they're called at.
As well: what is the correct order? The procedure for the airline I work at is:
Start 4
Start 3
Wait for temps
Shift up 4
Ships power
Start 1
Start 2
Shift 3
Shift 2
Shift 1
However I saw a video online where they followed this procedure:
Start 1
Start 2
Shift 2
Start 4
Shift 4
Shift down 2
Start 3
Shift 3
Shift 2
Shift 1
Thanks guys
I've been a lurker around these parts for a while, but never posted. I've been looking for information about the Electra start procedures on the net but have been having troubles. Particularly the crew callouts during start and the correct start/shift up order.
I know a few of the callouts:
"Button in"
"Rotation"
???
???
???
"7 for 8" (Starter cutout I think?)
But I'm looking for the full lists and the RPMs they're called at.
As well: what is the correct order? The procedure for the airline I work at is:
Start 4
Start 3
Wait for temps
Shift up 4
Ships power
Start 1
Start 2
Shift 3
Shift 2
Shift 1
However I saw a video online where they followed this procedure:
Start 1
Start 2
Shift 2
Start 4
Shift 4
Shift down 2
Start 3
Shift 3
Shift 2
Shift 1
Thanks guys
FO starts 1 and 2 Capt starts 3 and 4
Order is 1,4,3,2
PS = person starting PNS = person not starting
Calls as follows.
Capt Select(ing) (no of engine)
PS Turns start selector to appropriate engine number
PNS Clear (visual that prop is clear)
PS Starter in (when green button starter button pushed)
PNS Rotation (visual check prop is starting to turn)
PS Rotation inside (RPM indication rising on gauge)
PNS 2000 ( RPM, indicates fuel about to start flowing and ignitor energized)
PS TIT (when first rise in TIT seen indicating light off)
PNS 2 oils ( engine and gearbox oil pressure rising)
PNS Pumps Parallel ( primary pump failure light is on)
PNS 3 oils ( when starting 4 only, indicates 2 speed gear box low oil pressure light out)
PNS Seven for Eight ( RPM is passing 7000)
PS 8000 starter out ( engine has passed 8000 RPM and starter button has been pulled out)
PNS No overspeed, series ( starter has not remained connected and is overspeeding , indicated by no rise in overhead air manifold pressure gauge and primary pump failure light is out indicating fuel pumps are in series)
PS Stable start (when RPM stabilizes at between 9900 and 10300) TIT XXX (max observed) Temps Pressures checked
PS Turns starter selector to off and pushes guard over ign switch down
Other notes. One is started from the huffer, then air is disconnected by hand signal, manifold pressure is monitored to note when it goes to zero indicating disconnect by ground crew, then engine upshifted, 4 is next and when gen is on, signal is given to disconnect power and buses are monitored for transfer. Remainder of engines are started then 1 is downshifted and Capt calls for after start checklist.
Order is 1,4,3,2
PS = person starting PNS = person not starting
Calls as follows.
Capt Select(ing) (no of engine)
PS Turns start selector to appropriate engine number
PNS Clear (visual that prop is clear)
PS Starter in (when green button starter button pushed)
PNS Rotation (visual check prop is starting to turn)
PS Rotation inside (RPM indication rising on gauge)
PNS 2000 ( RPM, indicates fuel about to start flowing and ignitor energized)
PS TIT (when first rise in TIT seen indicating light off)
PNS 2 oils ( engine and gearbox oil pressure rising)
PNS Pumps Parallel ( primary pump failure light is on)
PNS 3 oils ( when starting 4 only, indicates 2 speed gear box low oil pressure light out)
PNS Seven for Eight ( RPM is passing 7000)
PS 8000 starter out ( engine has passed 8000 RPM and starter button has been pulled out)
PNS No overspeed, series ( starter has not remained connected and is overspeeding , indicated by no rise in overhead air manifold pressure gauge and primary pump failure light is out indicating fuel pumps are in series)
PS Stable start (when RPM stabilizes at between 9900 and 10300) TIT XXX (max observed) Temps Pressures checked
PS Turns starter selector to off and pushes guard over ign switch down
Other notes. One is started from the huffer, then air is disconnected by hand signal, manifold pressure is monitored to note when it goes to zero indicating disconnect by ground crew, then engine upshifted, 4 is next and when gen is on, signal is given to disconnect power and buses are monitored for transfer. Remainder of engines are started then 1 is downshifted and Capt calls for after start checklist.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 30th Dec 2011 at 04:49.
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Yep...them were the days....
You had to sort of know what you were doing, and how the systems worked..
Unlike today!
Sort of harsh I know, but that is my experience with todays low timers...
..my history includes 10 years and nearly 6K hours P3...
Cheers...
You had to sort of know what you were doing, and how the systems worked..
Unlike today!
Sort of harsh I know, but that is my experience with todays low timers...
..my history includes 10 years and nearly 6K hours P3...
Cheers...
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Yep..you bet...
If I recall it started something like...Air Drop....rotation...rotation indicated...then we all waited for 16% RPM, etc, etc.
But then again, we had an onboard APU, which meant starting #2 in Normal RPM, then #1, #3 and #4 in Low RPM, then following all the 'after starts', #3 was up-shifted and off we went!
We neither had or needed the two-speed generator setup on #4!
Cheers..
If I recall it started something like...Air Drop....rotation...rotation indicated...then we all waited for 16% RPM, etc, etc.
But then again, we had an onboard APU, which meant starting #2 in Normal RPM, then #1, #3 and #4 in Low RPM, then following all the 'after starts', #3 was up-shifted and off we went!
We neither had or needed the two-speed generator setup on #4!
Cheers..
Last edited by EW73; 3rd Jan 2012 at 04:34.
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The advantage of starting 4 first is it gives you ships electrics with 4 in low.
The guys on the ground will appriciate it if you turn off the bleed air when thay disconect the huffer (it was not Zantop SOP) but I did it.
I think that the Capt/FO starts are due to some airlines changed things around in the cockpit to do away with the FE. I think that was just fine on a good day but when the L188 started to play up the workload went up by a factor of ten, it was about then that you found out why Lockheed built the aircraft for three crew.
The guys on the ground will appriciate it if you turn off the bleed air when thay disconect the huffer (it was not Zantop SOP) but I did it.
I think that the Capt/FO starts are due to some airlines changed things around in the cockpit to do away with the FE. I think that was just fine on a good day but when the L188 started to play up the workload went up by a factor of ten, it was about then that you found out why Lockheed built the aircraft for three crew.
I think that the Capt/FO starts are due to some airlines changed things around in the cockpit to do away with the FE. I think that was just fine on a good day but when the L188 started to play up the workload went up by a factor of ten, it was about then that you found out why Lockheed built the aircraft for three crew.
You are also correct about the work load. The 2 crew STC was smoked through the regulator with out any real cockpit work load analysis being done, especially as a working autopilot is not required. It is a very busy airplane even when everything is working........
Turning of the bleed before disconnecting the external air source is also our SOP. There is a one way valve that is supposed to protect the external air source port, but it can fail which could be deadly for the ground crew if they try to disconnect with the hose still pressurized.
Overall a true pilots airplane and a delight to handle. Too bad the impending wing fatigue management AD will probably ground them all soon.
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Regretfully I never flew the Electra, but that number 3 really
sounded (both outside and inside the cabin) as it started in
HiRPM whenever one of the Ansett Wombat Squadron fire up
Then #4 started in Hi and both (paddle switched?) to Lo RPM.
I notice in the Reeve vid below they start #4 in Low for genny
purposes as described above, then paddle to Hi (I assume) to
crossbleed start #3. But wouldn't #4 generator then drop out
and everything go dark?
In any case those Allisons sound absolutely horny! They give
me a bloody hard-on.
PS - Anos Douros shows the FE starting engines.
sounded (both outside and inside the cabin) as it started in
HiRPM whenever one of the Ansett Wombat Squadron fire up
Then #4 started in Hi and both (paddle switched?) to Lo RPM.
I notice in the Reeve vid below they start #4 in Low for genny
purposes as described above, then paddle to Hi (I assume) to
crossbleed start #3. But wouldn't #4 generator then drop out
and everything go dark?
In any case those Allisons sound absolutely horny! They give
me a bloody hard-on.
PS - Anos Douros shows the FE starting engines.
The alternators are geared to produce the correct frequency at the "high" (ie in flight) RPM (13820). There is also a "low speed ground idle" RPM setting of 9900-10300 that saves fuel and reduces noise. Number 4 engine has an auxiliary 2 speed gear box that allows the alternator to produce on frequency power at either LSGI or high and the bus is designed so that the two priority buses and the essential AC bus can powered with only No 4 engine running.
We always start the engine in low for two reasons
1) it is easier on the engine as you get lower start temps, and
2) There is a gearbox maximum pressure limit (175 psi) before you can upshift from LSGI to High. This is because with cold oil you can greatly exceed the max gearbox pressure if you were to go directly to high RPM on start.
We always start the engine in low for two reasons
1) it is easier on the engine as you get lower start temps, and
2) There is a gearbox maximum pressure limit (175 psi) before you can upshift from LSGI to High. This is because with cold oil you can greatly exceed the max gearbox pressure if you were to go directly to high RPM on start.
Operators' I was familiar with started 4, 3, 2, 1. All engines started in Low Grd Idle. #4 & 3 started using GSU and 2 & 1 using crossbleed. Two engines in Low idle or one in High idle provided enough air to Xbleed start the others. The Electra's I am familiar with had the GSU connection and a second GPU receptacle under the rear fuselage thus keeping the GSU operator well away from the #3 prop (the standard GSU connection was in the right wing root). The revised location for ground equipment connection also meant the aircraft could taxi away without removing the grd equipment if need be.
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#4 & 3 started using GSU and 2 & 1 using crossbleed.
Ansett used to start #3 in hi then #4, then both to idle and
start 1 and 2. Maybe John Tulla could shed something.
It's 15 years since I was an F/E on the Electra.
IIRC we started 4 on external air and then disconnected the air and GPU with the engine in LSGI. When the oil temp was above zero we upshifted to HSGI and used crossbleed to start 3,2 & 1.
After an incident when a dozy F/E (not me) selected no.3 first by mistake and an equally dozy ground guy was hit by no.3 prop as it started to turn, we changed our procedure to only open the bleed valves as they were required for each engine.
Hope this helps.
HAPPY NEW YEAR.
IIRC we started 4 on external air and then disconnected the air and GPU with the engine in LSGI. When the oil temp was above zero we upshifted to HSGI and used crossbleed to start 3,2 & 1.
After an incident when a dozy F/E (not me) selected no.3 first by mistake and an equally dozy ground guy was hit by no.3 prop as it started to turn, we changed our procedure to only open the bleed valves as they were required for each engine.
Hope this helps.
HAPPY NEW YEAR.
Moderator
Maybe John Tulla could shed something
30 years and more since I was on the Goose, mate, so the memory cells are in near total disarray. As I recall we started 4 first. Biggest problem was taxying without having the throttles trigger the transition to hi RPM .. the quiet night would be shattered with accompanying cockpit light show.
30 years and more since I was on the Goose, mate, so the memory cells are in near total disarray. As I recall we started 4 first. Biggest problem was taxying without having the throttles trigger the transition to hi RPM .. the quiet night would be shattered with accompanying cockpit light show.
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Ok thanks John but I could've sworn you started #3 first, but
on parking you kept #4 in low idle till the genny cart was all
connected up. I sometimes wandered over to the freight shed
at Launy sometimes during our turnaround and watch ya's.
30 years? Oh jesus yer right!
on parking you kept #4 in low idle till the genny cart was all
connected up. I sometimes wandered over to the freight shed
at Launy sometimes during our turnaround and watch ya's.
30 years? Oh jesus yer right!
Moderator
Perhaps one of the F/Es from AN will jump with the answer... having disposed of my L188 books years ago, I just can't remember. Chances are we said g'day in the wee hours at LST.
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Just flicked through my old log books...
In LST standing next to #1 Dowty Rotol I did meet a FE Alan
Greco(?) once and asked me "Who the fcuk are you?" I said I
came from that TAA DC9 over there, which was who the fcuk
I was. He then asked would I like some coffee and sandies up
inside. I did (purely for a chance to get inside an Electra) and
proceeded to salivate all over the cockpit.
After that I was a Balls Caught patron in Sunbury during my
nightstops in MEL!
Captain was Bill Rogers (a BNE poofter like me) who I'd seen
at Eagle Farm on and off but never met him. Can't recall the
FO.
Greco(?) once and asked me "Who the fcuk are you?" I said I
came from that TAA DC9 over there, which was who the fcuk
I was. He then asked would I like some coffee and sandies up
inside. I did (purely for a chance to get inside an Electra) and
proceeded to salivate all over the cockpit.
After that I was a Balls Caught patron in Sunbury during my
nightstops in MEL!
Captain was Bill Rogers (a BNE poofter like me) who I'd seen
at Eagle Farm on and off but never met him. Can't recall the
FO.
Moderator
The well-known Mr Graco .. a fine chap. Can't recall flying with him on the Goose but certainly did on the 727.
You may be interested in Gil White's list of those valiant folk who were fortunate enough to fly the magic lady. The older folk were passenger operators, the younger - Wombats.
A quick flick through the list brings back some wonderful memories.
You may be interested in Gil White's list of those valiant folk who were fortunate enough to fly the magic lady. The older folk were passenger operators, the younger - Wombats.
A quick flick through the list brings back some wonderful memories.