Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

iPad

Old 24th Oct 2011, 08:38
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 3,550
Lots of operator manuals do not allow the use of electronic devices on the flight deck
So if the regulator allows it, lobby the company to change!

Remember people, because it might indeed be illegal in some regimes does not make it illegal everywhere on the planet...
compressor stall is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2011, 16:54
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Rugby
Posts: 883
Ipad Ios 5 safety warning.

Any of you guys using your i-pads to store aviation info should have a read of this:
iPad Pilot Safety Alert | Flying Magazine | The World
It seems vital information and be deleted without your knowledge. As some airlines issue these devices to their crews, it could be a matter of some concern. There is also a discussion on the matter, here,
FLYER Forums • View topic - Ipad warning
Dawdler is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2011, 11:36
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: England
Posts: 367
Ipad

fmp320 and others
Are you all barking? Ipad use unauthorised on the flight deck! - Just plead guilty if you get to the high court....
Ipad so far - have a look at this Ipad blanks PFD FAA could decide action to address Wi-Fi interference with avionics
This will be the subject of a Boeing SB. Have you had the battery tested just in case it catches fire in flight? Have a look at what TGL36 says about it. Have you got authority from your CP to use it - just incase there are insurance complications?
By the way waist is part of the anatomy. If I were you I would heed the advice of FE Hoppy, pack your ipad away or leave it in your car or at home. Wait and see what EASA rule on its use on the flight deck. Oh and by the way Ios5 is causing problems especially with unexpected and involuntary deletion of data and since I loaded it onto my iPhone it now has the speed of a cart horse.
It will be sometime yet before tablets rule over pc's and notebooks as far as aviation is concerned so why not wait - maybe windows 8 will be a better tool?
Epsilon minus is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2011, 19:39
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: England
Posts: 367
fmp320 and Friends

Further on the Ipad - No doubt you will have read the small print?

This is the link -Ipad Software Licence

May I draw your attention to this section (from the link)

7.5 YOU FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE iPAD SOFTWARE AND SERVICES ARE NOT INTENDED OR SUITABLE FOR USE IN SITUATIONS OR ENVIRONMENTS WHERE THE FAILURE OR TIME DELAYS OF, OR ERRORS OR INACCURACIES IN, THE CONTENT, DATA OR INFORMATION PROVIDED BY THE iPAD SOFTWARE OR SERVICES COULD LEAD TO DEATH, PERSONAL INJURY, OR SEVERE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE OPERATION OF NUCLEAR FACILITIES, AIRCRAFT NAVIGATION OR COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL, LIFE SUPPORT OR WEAPONS SYSTEMS.

Still want to use it on the flight deck?
Epsilon minus is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2011, 10:31
  #25 (permalink)  
Transparency International
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Köln
Posts: 735
iPads Can Delete Charts, Plates

Not my kind of software:
AVFLASH NEWS

October 23, 2011
iPads Can Delete Charts, Plates

By Russ Niles, Editor-in-Chief

Those who use iPads for charts and approach plates are advised to pre-flight their devices before counting on them for navigation, thanks to Apple's latest operating system upgrade. iOS5 includes a file-management feature that might be handy if you're downloading a movie, but could be inconvenient at the very least if it messes with your navigation-app data bases. In an explanation on its website, flight-planning app provider ForeFlight says iOS5 will randomly delete data to make room for new files and that could include your charts and approach plates. The iPad does display a "cleaning" symbol by the app icon that it's busily deleting data from but that can be easy to miss.
ForeFlight recommends several strategies to keep you from discovering that the latest Transformers has pre-empted the information you now need for your flight.

The most obvious suggestion is to simply check that everything is as it should be before you leave. ForeFlight has built a feature into its app that checks to ensure the full data package is in place, but the operator does have to initiate that process and its best done on the ground. To prevent data from being deleted in flight, ForeFlight recommends shutting off the WiFi and 3G before takeoff. Keeping plenty of disc space available in the device will also prevent the problem from occurring in the first place.
dusk2dawn is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2011, 22:24
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 3,550
Do you check your hard copy jepp charts before flight? Did you leave the ils and ground chart in the previous aircraft?

What's the difference checking the iPad?

Airmanship.
compressor stall is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2011, 00:33
  #27 (permalink)  
Transparency International
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Köln
Posts: 735
Airmanship is not in question here. Unreliable software is!
dusk2dawn is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2011, 08:09
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 3,550
So the OS when it does a once a year-ish major upgrade might delete some of the data. This would be realised by any prudent pilot 1. after the upgrade and if that didn't work 2. before getting in the aircraft, or 3 before engine start when one can't find the chart to brief the departure.

The only way this "iPad can delete charts" sky-is falling-pilots-will-crash headline is going to occur is if you upgrade to iOS5 in flight. Hardly a likely scenario.

This is along the lines of antenna-gate. Yes, you can cause it to be a problem if you try, but use it normally with the usual prudence and it's a great device.

And as for our Huxley lover with the scaremongering that: "iPad unauthorised as it blanks PFDs and Boeing's issuing a SB": Read your link it's talking about leaving the iPad connected to the 3G etc network to get live info. That's a world away from "Airplane Mode" using one's Jepp charts etc.

Bottom line is that if your regulator and company allow it and have done an appropriate risk analysis on the device, implemented mitigators and have sops for its use, go for it.
compressor stall is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2011, 08:51
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,434
The problem exists when you update with limited space available, easy solution is to buy a 64meg Ipad and dont update after you have checked that you have the appropriate charts.

Mutt
mutt is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2011, 09:09
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: England
Posts: 367
Common sense needs to prevail here and many of you are not exhibiting any of it.

If one reads the PFD Blanking link circumspectly you will note the following:

The susceptibility of Honeywell Phase 3 DUs to Wi-Fi interference was discovered when FAA supplemental type certification for Aircell's Gogo air-to-ground (ATG)-based in-flight Internet solution was sought for Boeing 737NG aircraft. Blanking of the Phase 3 DUs was observed during required electro magnetic interference testing.
Speaking broadly about the interest that Jeppesen is fielding for a connected iPad-based EFB - and not the Honeywell situation in specific - Ellerbrock noted that, as a transmitting portable electronic device (T-PED), the iPad is no longer passive, but rather is actively talking on radio frequencies. "It means it is potentially more difficult to have a clean test with avionics interference, although we've seen some pretty good success so far. But there is more testing involved to make sure it is not interfering with avionics."
Again note EMI testing which the ipad has yet to pass.

Now I'm a fan of anything that improves safety and that includes information technology on the flight deck but PED's (EFB Class 1-3) needs to be scrutinised by way of risk assessment and data verification especially for type B software before they can make it anywhere near the aircraft. On top of that the hardware that the operator proposes to use must meet the specifications described in TGL36 and AMC 20-25.

The iPad is a wonderful tool for reading books and displaying charts but it is not proven for type B software (yet) and the data transfer methodology (apps) is far from satisfactory if you were to compare it with, for example, AIRAC cycle updates for the FMCS. No doubt EASA and the JOEB will be reviewing the ipad as we speak and may rule in its favour - if they do its down to the operator to apply to the CAA or their aviation authority for permission for use, the submission for which covers all that I have mentioned above. Until then you cant just stroll onto the flight deck with your iPad or kindle or whatever and use it to provide you with safety critical information - this is dangerous!

So if your still not convinced and hell bent on proving your case why don't you consult with your local FOI - Tell him who you are and who you work for and I'm sure he will put you straight - Don't argue with me or the other wise contributors to this forum.
Regards
EM
Epsilon minus is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2011, 12:07
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 3,550
EM,

Please explain to the dear reader what does interference discovered when getting approval for the iPad to be hooked up to the aircraft's internet have to do with this discussion about an iPad in Airplane Mode with one's Jepp charts?

you cant just stroll onto the flight deck with your iPad or kindle or whatever and use it to provide you with safety critical information - this is dangerous!
It surprises me that someone so self-accolading of their own intelligence would write this in response. I have never said you could do such a thing. You might like to reread the last paragraph of my previous post. And the last sentence on my third last post in case you missed it there too.

So if your [sic] still not convinced and hell bent on proving your case why don't you consult with your local FOI - Tell him who you are and who you work for and I'm sure he will put you straight - Don't argue with me or the other wise contributors to this forum.
We've chatted personally at length about it. Thanks for asking.
compressor stall is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2011, 12:18
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
Posts: 7,806
Bottom line is that if your regulator and company allow it and have done an appropriate risk analysis on the device, implemented mitigators and have sops for its use, go for it.
OK, now I understand.
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2011, 12:21
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Erehwon
Posts: 1,148
Spot on Hoppy.

Interesting that pax get leaned on in the back. People adding kit of their own at the front sounds a bit iffy.

Not that you'd know what happens at the front eh? Ex 216?

Take care,
Dengue_Dude is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2011, 12:30
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: wherever
Age: 50
Posts: 1,609
Two different and unrelated (as yet) issues.

The first is regardless of the IOS. This is the misuse of PED as an EFB without approval.

The second is with approval to use the ipad as an EFB. In this case if IOS5 is installed you need to check that all your data is correct before flight because despite Compressor stalls misunderstanding of the case, your IOS5 device will make room for new data by deleting old stuff. Not the IOS itself but any data.

The most common scenario will be - bored on nightstop, download movie and watch, fall asleep while watching, wake up call, quick SSS and jump on the crew bus. Get half way through prefight check when you remember you downloaded a movie, check jep integrity and find missing data. No wifi or 3G connection on parking bay xx. No electronic charts.

I like the Ipad and I think it's use as an EFB is a good idea. However, it must be used with the correct safety system put in place and not on an ad hoc basis just because a crew member happens to have one.

EFBs require certification. If you have it you also have an approved method of mounting or regulations about stowing the device and I would guess you are about to get regulations about what private uses are approved and how much memory must be free.

DD - Never really paid much attention to be honest, as you'll know if you flew with me :-)

Last edited by FE Hoppy; 28th Oct 2011 at 12:55.
FE Hoppy is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2011, 12:39
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Western USA
Posts: 556
FWIW, the company has issued iPads to the flight crews for use as an EFB, to include weather gathering information (and we aren't the first to do it in an approved manner). With latest software updates and reasonable attention to detail, we haven't experienced any incidents of the sky falling or other safety-compromising events. Like a Jepp kit, one has to take care during the revision process and verify that charts are available prior to flight.

Frankly, I would be more concerned flying a highly automated, multi-computer driven, FBW, plastic aircraft than having an iPad in the cockpit. Mark me down as one "old guy" who likes the iPad, EFB concept.
Desert185 is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2011, 23:20
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ITALY
Age: 38
Posts: 296
I work for a company who is currently using the iPad in the flight deck, we are legally approved by out EASA authority, and all ykou have wrote so far is totally wrong. It's like when some of those flight simulator "pillots" try to explain to a real pilot how to fly their airplanes..

-first of all, the iso5 warning ONLY apply to fore flight, a nice app for recreation pilot, but nothing comparable to a professional app, the charts in there are those for the Internet aip of each country without a real check about their authenticity or currency. We are using the Jeppesen software which is absolutely compliant with the normal paper version airac update.

-the iPad has been tested either for the electronic interference and rapid decompression from 51000ft

-I don't see what's the problem with his battery in the cockpit when on a 380 500 pax could be using it in the back

-off course there are some IT restriction on it's use, it's not possible to delete any data, app, or anything as it's use is stricly related only to the jeep app and the PDF reader for all the manuals. Nor is possible to download porn movie in the night stop or bullshit like that!

-it's a class 1 EFB, portable device, not connected to any ac power source or system, to be stowed before TO or land.

-after using for more than 6 months I can only say that's the best tool ever, I've seen cockpit with charts on the mfd, or super certified efb aside the efis and none of them is even comparable to this in terms of user friendly interface, data completion ecc...



Before you talk about something, please inform yourselves!!
mgTF is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2011, 23:32
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: wherever
Age: 50
Posts: 1,609
really mgTF? no problems with iOS 5? are you sure?


http://ww1.jeppesen.com/documents/pu...10-12_ios5.pdf

not everything as rosy as you might think.

and for those who would like to introduce the iPad as an EFB here is how to do it legally:

Articles - FAA Issues InFO Bulletin on Tablet EFB Authorization - Jeppesen Mobile TC for iPad Cited as Example
FE Hoppy is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2011, 01:19
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: in the flight deck
Posts: 89
I use it for quick reference to aerodrome approach charts.

Our company still use paper charts though.

For those who use it as a class 1 EFB ( if any ), where do they store the ipad after each flight?

If the ipad are to replace the paper charts ( allowed ?? ), what are the backup plan you use if the battery ( ipad ) died during approach?


many thanks.
Neupielot is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2011, 11:28
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ITALY
Age: 38
Posts: 296
We have 2 iPad (chances both get broken are the same as you spill the coffee on both the charts sets) of course there is a minimum level of bettery dependent on flight duration about 10% per hour.
Before each flight is our SOP to set all the charts per departure, destination, alternate and t/o alternate.
mgTF is offline  
Old 2nd Nov 2011, 01:52
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the mix muff
Age: 39
Posts: 171
Hi guys
Anybody to give me advices,my IPad is brand new but whenever I use FaceTime or attempt to read a magazine it goes off and return to normal screen and that worries me a lot.Anybody to point me in the right direction?
N1 Limit is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.