AF447 final crew conversation - Thread No. 1
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by GerardC
Do you seriously beleive BEA would hide the fact that the PF did not hold all required qualifications to act as "releif captain" on this leg ?
I thought PNF was 'Relief Captain'? To save me looking back, GC- you are saying PF(RHS) was?
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Whatever his licenses say, 228 people think that this pilot was unqualified.
I do strongly believe that the AB interface was a contributory factor, but a pilot well-trained in all phases of hand-flying would likely have saved the day.
As for seating protocol, when one is about to die, WHO CARES???
(Just adding a new factor to argue about.
I do strongly believe that the AB interface was a contributory factor, but a pilot well-trained in all phases of hand-flying would likely have saved the day.
As for seating protocol, when one is about to die, WHO CARES???
(Just adding a new factor to argue about.
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Gerard C and BOAC:
I seem to recall that there was a segment of CVR that showed Commander Dubois asking PF FO Bonin if he was qualified to fly as PIC, to which Bonin said yes. IIRC all that, Dubois then told Bonin in RHS that he was in charge.
I can’t find the CVR transcript portion with that in, but if I’m wrong no doubt somebody will correct me.
I seem to recall that there was a segment of CVR that showed Commander Dubois asking PF FO Bonin if he was qualified to fly as PIC, to which Bonin said yes. IIRC all that, Dubois then told Bonin in RHS that he was in charge.
I can’t find the CVR transcript portion with that in, but if I’m wrong no doubt somebody will correct me.
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ChrisN;
The following is the first para on page 73 of BEA's Interim Report No.3 :-
The following is the first para on page 73 of BEA's Interim Report No.3 :-
A little after 1 h 52, the turbulence stopped. The copilot drew the Captain’s attention to the value of REC MAX, which then reached FL 375. The Captain made no comment and, a few moments later, he woke the second copilot, said he was taking his place, and asked the copilot in the right seat if he had a commercial pilot license. He thus ensured that he was qualified to act as relief and implicitly designated him as relief pilot. This question to the copilot probably meant that the issue of the relief pilot for the Captain had not been raised during the briefing before the flight.
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1) PF did hold a valid ATPL since aug 3rd 2007 (see BEA interim report #3 page 15).
1.5.1.3 Co-pilot
Male, aged 32
Professional pilot’s FCL license (CPL) issued on 23 April 2001
Multi-engine instrument type rating (IR ME) issued on 16 October 2001
ATPL theory obtained in September 2000
Airbus A340 type rating issued on 26 February 2008
Line oriented flight training completed 9 June 2008
Airbus A330 type rating issued on 1st
December 2008
Line oriented flight training completed 22 December 2008
Other type ratings: Airbus A320 issued on 7 September 2004
Medical certificate (class 1) issued on 24 October 2008, valid until 31 October
2009 with compulsory wearing of corrective lenses
Male, aged 32
Professional pilot’s FCL license (CPL) issued on 23 April 2001
Multi-engine instrument type rating (IR ME) issued on 16 October 2001
ATPL theory obtained in September 2000
Airbus A340 type rating issued on 26 February 2008
Line oriented flight training completed 9 June 2008
Airbus A330 type rating issued on 1st
December 2008
Line oriented flight training completed 22 December 2008
Other type ratings: Airbus A320 issued on 7 September 2004
Medical certificate (class 1) issued on 24 October 2008, valid until 31 October
2009 with compulsory wearing of corrective lenses
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Captplaystation: "Some on here seem to have problems with that & think" all crew should be capable of flying" / "crew must respect the rest allocation to be rested for arrival" etc.
I don't think this situation was one where respecting anyones sensibilities was of any importance, the most senior guy (who is payed to be in charge/paid to ensure safety) should have taken a hold of the damn thing. . . on the 2nd point, the arrival, & how rested you feel for it,is of little relevance, if, in the meantime, you dump the ship in the ocean."
-----------------
Thanks for that, I find it convincing. I had felt that the Captain probably didn't have the time and information to take a front seat and assume command but it seems that many experienced pilots here take a different view.
Certainly as pilots we are all trained to analyze and deal with unusual attitudes in a few seconds, under the hood at the very least. I've never had to deal with an unusual attitude in clag but I hope I'd benefit from my training, even as an humble 172 IR pilot.
Good discussion.
I don't think this situation was one where respecting anyones sensibilities was of any importance, the most senior guy (who is payed to be in charge/paid to ensure safety) should have taken a hold of the damn thing. . . on the 2nd point, the arrival, & how rested you feel for it,is of little relevance, if, in the meantime, you dump the ship in the ocean."
-----------------
Thanks for that, I find it convincing. I had felt that the Captain probably didn't have the time and information to take a front seat and assume command but it seems that many experienced pilots here take a different view.
Certainly as pilots we are all trained to analyze and deal with unusual attitudes in a few seconds, under the hood at the very least. I've never had to deal with an unusual attitude in clag but I hope I'd benefit from my training, even as an humble 172 IR pilot.
Good discussion.
Last edited by SDFlyer; 24th Dec 2011 at 17:02.
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I don't know if it has been discussed but could someone tell me what kind of seat-of-the-pants sensation the pilots were experiencing with a 10,000fpm descent? Were they in a "steady-state" of some kind with no sensations?
I know this is probably a matter of physics.
Furthermore, it would seem that there was very little wind noise on the flight deck given the lack of forward speed. Another vital clue missed?
I know this is probably a matter of physics.
Furthermore, it would seem that there was very little wind noise on the flight deck given the lack of forward speed. Another vital clue missed?
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Originally Posted by maajam
what kind of seat-of-the-pants sensation the pilots were experiencing with a 10,000fpm descent? Were they in a "steady-state" of some kind with no sensations?
...it would seem that there was very little wind noise on the flight deck given the lack of forward speed.
...it would seem that there was very little wind noise on the flight deck given the lack of forward speed.
There was a leaked statement regarding noise level in the cockpit. Apparently the airflow around the cockpit was very tubulent and generated significant airstream noise. Probably the genesis of PF's comment about having some "crazy speed".
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very interesting. So after an initial sense of falling (after they reached their crazy 7,000fpm climb to FL375 and then dropped at -10,00fpm) with the inflexion attributed perhaps to turbulence, I take it to mean that there were no sensations?
And the captain could walk back from his rest bunk and into the cockpit while all this was going on?
Pretty incredible.
And the captain could walk back from his rest bunk and into the cockpit while all this was going on?
Pretty incredible.
Mistrust in Management
maajam
I take it to mean that there were no sensations?
The 7000 ft/min climb followed by a 10,000 ft/min descent, plus turbulence, would have had me out of the bunk like a shot.
Of course once established in the 1g environment of a 10.000 ft/min descent I would easily walk to the flight deck.
Then I would try to understand what was happening - not easy having just woken up with probably less than 2 mins to impact (correct me if I am wrong).
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Interesting post. If you look at the FDR output, any conscious pilot would surely have been aware of the remarkable accelerations associated with the zoom climb and initial descent. If the Captain was awake you would hope he would have taken this awareness with him into the cockpit.
If he was indeed aware, it's a great pity a certain explanation didn't occur to him (or so it seems from the CVR) - at least to the extent of making specific inquiries and taking the obvious actions to save the ship if necessary. The generous interpretation is that he was utterly naive about events preceding his entry into the cockpit. What if anything do we know about his state of consciousness at climb initiation?
If he was indeed aware, it's a great pity a certain explanation didn't occur to him (or so it seems from the CVR) - at least to the extent of making specific inquiries and taking the obvious actions to save the ship if necessary. The generous interpretation is that he was utterly naive about events preceding his entry into the cockpit. What if anything do we know about his state of consciousness at climb initiation?
Last edited by SDFlyer; 26th Dec 2011 at 16:28.
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Then I would try to understand what was happening - not easy having just woken up with probably less than 2 mins to impact (correct me if I am wrong).
He never woken up as he certainly never hit his bunk and sleep
He had aboard his girlfriend and be sure (it is a human behavior) he paid visit to here after retiring from the flight deck.
Just to check the time gap between captain live and return to flight deck (it's in the preliminary report N°3 of BEA)
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I think if he had been capt. for as long as he had been, sensations of climb and turbulence don't disturb you. Not even the sensation of descent -- it seems.
Didn't the pilot's keep asking where he was and whether he was coming or not?!
Didn't the pilot's keep asking where he was and whether he was coming or not?!
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maajam wrote:
Ummmm.............
Because the airplane was at an assigned FL level that was limited by the air temp, the Captain had every right to expect the plane to stay at that level. And this was not a gentle adjustment, it was a "zoom climb."
If, as was just posted, he was in the cabin visiting with his girlfriend (first time I have read that), then it's obvious that he would not have heard the flight deck's summons in the rest area. Therefore, I can speculate that he most certainly did return to the FD because of the bottom dropping out.
I think if he had been capt. for as long as he had been, sensations of climb and turbulence don't disturb you. Not even the sensation of descent -- it seems.
Because the airplane was at an assigned FL level that was limited by the air temp, the Captain had every right to expect the plane to stay at that level. And this was not a gentle adjustment, it was a "zoom climb."
If, as was just posted, he was in the cabin visiting with his girlfriend (first time I have read that), then it's obvious that he would not have heard the flight deck's summons in the rest area. Therefore, I can speculate that he most certainly did return to the FD because of the bottom dropping out.
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Since at terminal velocity they felt ~1g, can the NU attitude have given them the sensation of acceleration? If it did, they totally disregarded what the instruments were telling them or the displays must have been faulty.
Plastic PPRuNer
"....the displays must have been faulty."
May I suggest that faulty or not, by the time the stall was established the displays were so covered with multicoloured scrolling, flashing and changing alert-messages that it was hard to decipher anything at all, let alone the attitude indicator?
The independent sidesticks (fine for normal flight) were the last nail in the coffin.
???
May I suggest that faulty or not, by the time the stall was established the displays were so covered with multicoloured scrolling, flashing and changing alert-messages that it was hard to decipher anything at all, let alone the attitude indicator?
The independent sidesticks (fine for normal flight) were the last nail in the coffin.
???
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Mac the Knife
Sorry, but wrong the "attitude indicator" would still be fully visible, there are some messages on the PFD, but not scrolling ECAM's.
the displays were so covered with multicoloured scrolling, flashing and changing alert-messages that it was hard to decipher anything at all, let alone the attitude indicator?