AF 447 Search to resume (part2)

[RR_NDB]

If a/c hit surface with a left bank

In fact, it seems that one wing is largely broken in smaller parts

The LH wing was hit harder than RH.

And eng #2 traveled farther. (hit water a little bit later) .

[takata]

Hi RR_NDB,

Originally Posted by RR_NDB

My objective now is to have some insight on the trajectory of a/c at the end of it´s "flight" from FL350. I am anxious to learn at least how far the debris field is from LKP. I understood they did not revealed yet the recovery ship position. Who knows it´s PSN?

The crash site is less than 5 NM (8 km) NE from LKP.
This position was confirmed yesterday by mm43 from one of his good marine sources.

S~
Olivier

[Chris Scott]

A330ETOPS,

This should get you going:
FLIGHT AF 447

[RR_NDB]

Debris site PSN?

Tanaka,

What is the PSN?

I am very much interested to know the bearing from LKP tp this PSN.

[SaturnV]

mm43 and bearfoil, apologies, for I re-read the New York Times article and can't find the reference quote. The article has been revised slightly since it first appeared on-line several days ago, but I don't think they would have taken that out. (I went looking to see when the journalist had interviewed the BEA, as he had interviewed the Brazilian coroner in mid-March, and at least one interview with the BEA thereafter.) So now I am not sure where I read that.

The only recent New York Times reference to the position and flight is that the wreckage is "just about six miles laterally" from the LKP. "Laterally" means 'to the side', and in this context, could be read as being on the same latitude as the LKP.

In parsing American English, "just about" would usually mean a bit less than six miles, --or 'not quite' or 'just short of' six miles. 'About six miles' would be six miles, more or less. 'Just over six miles' is a bit more than six miles.

[takata]

Originally Posted by RR_NDB

Still supposing they hit surface first:
1) When they separate from a/c IMO they would travel further than other a/c pieces. Reasons:
a) A/c horizontal speed
b) it´s inertia (mass)
c) Less "water braking capability" (better hydrodynamics)
Hence it seems to me that they are in the "end" of the debris field farther from the point a/c hit surface.

Well, it is your opinion but you should check at the videos and wonder if Sullenberger's A320 engines were recovered farther than his airframe. Look at the "drag/breaking/anchor" effect when they contacted water... only second, after his tail end.
This nearly stopped his aircraft in the Hudson.

[A330ETOPS]

Thanks for the link.

I've been following this thread from day 1. I can't see why they neednto be bringing bodies etc back to the surface. They've got the recorders now, and surely they don't need anything else from down there?

You've gotta feel it for the team out there on the boat. The images being relayed back must be horrific, especially when brought upto the surface.

The express quotes...Two bodies have so far been retrieved. They had been remarkably well preserved in the sterile, oxygen-less salty waters at 13,000ft where no living creature can survive. Sources close to the salvage teams report that the scene in the cabins is like a gruesome “waxworks”, with the bodies mummified and still strapped in their seats.
The fact that the bodies are so intact should enable forensic pathologists to determine from tissue samples whether the passengers died from asphyxiation high in the air, or whether they perished as the plane sank far beneath the ocean. This, in turn, could provide clues as to what happened.
Pictures beamed to the surface by the Remus are said to be so disturbing that some salvage experts asked to be withdrawn from the investigation.

[RR_NDB]

"drag/breaking/anchor" at high descent rate

Tanaka,

In Sullenberger's "miracle" the vertical speed was much less than AF447.

And IIRC one engine (RH i guess) remained attached.

In AF447 after high energy (mostly vertical) impact IMO just the core remained during the (IMO, slightly diagonal) travel to the floor.

Inertia more important than hydrodynamic braking.

Just a model trying to figure out a/c bearing when hit surface.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Le Figaro - France : AF*447*: une opération pour repêcher les boîtes noires

Date:
14/04/2011 !
Location for the Figaro : 5m from LKP

BTW why the vertical stabilizer on the seabed in the Figaro drawing ?

[RR_NDB]

Politics, Economics and PR

A330ETOPS,

We are not watching just the investigation first phases.

But a high profile case with huge interests involved mixed with legal issues.

Who knowns what they will do to be aligned with all components of the issue?

IMO finding what led to the crash is only one component of the effort.

I hope to learn what occurred that night.

[SaturnV]

jcjeant, milles is miles. nautical miles would be milles nautique.

[kilomikedelta]

A330ETOPS;

quote -

I've been following this thread from day 1. I can't see why they neednto be bringing bodies etc back to the surface. They've got the recorders now, and surely they don't need anything else from down there?

You've gotta feel it for the team out there on the boat. The images being relayed back must be horrific, especially when brought upto the surface.

The express quotes...Two bodies have so far been retrieved. They had been remarkably well preserved in the sterile, oxygen-less salty waters at 13,000ft where no living creature can survive. Sources close to the salvage teams report that the scene in the cabins is like a gruesome “waxworks”, with the bodies mummified and still strapped in their seats.
The fact that the bodies are so intact should enable forensic pathologists to determine from tissue samples whether the passengers died from asphyxiation high in the air, or whether they perished as the plane sank far beneath the ocean. This, in turn, could provide clues as to what happened.
Pictures beamed to the surface by the Remus are said to be so disturbing that some salvage experts asked to be withdrawn from the investigation.

- unquote

You say that bodies need not be brought back to the surface. Then you say that it would enable forensic pathologists to determine whether the deceased died of asphyxiation or drowning (a subset of asphyxiation). Do you want that information or don't you?

The salvage crew are professionals and have probably seen decomposing human copses before. It is unlikely that they would withdraw from the investigation for those reasons. Are you confusing your discomfort with death with their professional attitudes?

Discovery of causes of death is not like your mum reading you a bedtime story but it does involve dealing with reality.

[rh200]

The salvage crew are professionals and have probably seen decomposing human copses before

Thats possible, but at those depths retrieval and working is only done by a very small amount of people in the world. Considering these people don't deal with situations that have just occured (relatively speaking), its entirely possible that this is a completly alien situation.

[WeeJeem]

Sorry, A330ETOPS, but the relevant phrase that springs to mind here for the deep ops is "**** or get off the pot".

If some of the people working there can't hack it, then they're doing absolutely the right thing by stepping back and saying so - but I challenge you to find a single one of them who says that this work should stop just because it's too much for them...

<conjecture>A330ETOPS has not lost any loved one(s) in uncertain circumstances and/or where A330ETOPS would like or need their body(ies) to be interred, cremated, sanctified or, in some other way, put to rest but this was not possible. </>

[promani]

kilomikedelta
The salvage crew are professionals and have probably seen decomposing human copses before.

As you said probably. Not everyone on board has to have contact, physically or visually, with deceased persons especially those that have degraded after two years on the bottom of the Atlantic. Also it has been known for professional investigators to be overcome by what they have witnessed, and ask to be replaced.

[wozzo]

Originally Posted by kilomikedelta

The salvage crew are professionals and have probably seen decomposing human copses before. It is unlikely that they would withdraw from the investigation for those reasons.

But this happened actually in this case. Members of the team of the GEOMAR institute (Kiel/Germany), who were, with their REMUS 6000, part of the crew who discovered the wreckage in phase 4, at first declined to participate in the salvage operation (the institute has also a ROV) exactly because of the psychological stress of the task. They subsequently changed their mind, but in the end their services were not requested.

These people are deep sea explorers and scientists - not used to this kind of task at all.

[mm43]

SaturnV;

jcjeant, milles is miles. nautical miles would be milles nautique.

Yes, that is correct. A few pages back at post #820, page 41, I actually posted the Recovery Operation Position (ROP) without giving the exact co-ordinates.

ROP = 023°T x 4.34NM(5 miles/8km) from LKP

Those with a calculator can come up with their own position, but the one given above will lead you to the main engines.

[Machinbird]

I've been following this thread from day 1. I can't see why they neednto be bringing bodies etc back to the surface. They've got the recorders now, and surely they don't need anything else from down there?

I hope the body removal that has already occurred is only to determine whether or not it is really practical to retrieve the victims of this crash.
At ~1 body per day, it could take a really long time. So what condition are the recovered bodies in? If intact and recognizable, that is one thing.
If only suitable for a body bag, that is something else. I wonder if the Judicial branch is "now driving the ship". Body recovery is their area of responsibility.

There are still many things on the bottom that I would like to see retrieved if I were the BEA. The THS actuator, engines and engine computers, significant portions of the slats, as much of the control surfaces as possible,and the cockpit section including ADRs, AOA probes, Pitot probes, Static ports and Quick Access recorders, for example. What if the DFDR is not readable?? They had better cover all the bets. Old fashioned accident investigation can still tell a lot.

[Machinbird]

The fact that the bodies are so intact should enable forensic pathologists to determine from tissue samples whether the passengers died from asphyxiation high in the air, or whether they perished as the plane sank far beneath the ocean. This, in turn, could provide clues as to what happened

No one died from asphyxiation high in the air. They died from the impact at the surface of the ocean or from drowning as the wreckage sank. There is no evidence of depressurization from the recovered wreckage or in the ACARS record until late in the sequence and by then the aircraft was just about in the water.
My vote is that the impact was sufficient to impart fatal injuries to all. A conscious survivor would not be strapped in a seat for long.

[grity]

the "P" from F-GZCP portside and parts of a door ?
Directupload.net - Dkg7n8izd.jpg