AF447 wreckage found
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,525
Likes: 0
From: fl
I agree stepwilk, too little known information was put out and who knows when any more will be known. Now all that is being discussed is the sliver of information they released. They have it all even though they haven't gone over it thoroughly but the CVR would tell a lot of the story. We can go on about why the PF elected to pull up and start the whole disaster but the CVR will explain why he thought he had to do it. They already have that information. Eventually we will know too. Guess we will have to wait. It sucks, doesn't it?
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
From: Europe
stepwilk, bubbers44,
are you suggesting people shouldn't have the right to express whatever they think, or that none is valid?
No more information would reveal whatever we don't yet know, BEA released information along that line or it would be meaningless and misleading.
You don't need to know the color of cockpit inetrior if you know that the captain went to rest minutes before entering a CB other flights bypassed, that the PF held pro-stall controls throught the fall, and that it resulted as it did.
The answer as to why to me is also pretty obvious, it's in the previous sentence.
I wouldn't discount opinions of worthy others, just because so much was written, you don't have to read it all.
are you suggesting people shouldn't have the right to express whatever they think, or that none is valid?
No more information would reveal whatever we don't yet know, BEA released information along that line or it would be meaningless and misleading.
You don't need to know the color of cockpit inetrior if you know that the captain went to rest minutes before entering a CB other flights bypassed, that the PF held pro-stall controls throught the fall, and that it resulted as it did.
The answer as to why to me is also pretty obvious, it's in the previous sentence.
I wouldn't discount opinions of worthy others, just because so much was written, you don't have to read it all.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 41
Likes: 1
From: France
best analysis so far imho.
TheShadow in post 1222 gives the best analysis so far on the facts that are known to us. I advise everyone who has an honest and keen interest in this accident to keep a a good look out for his postings.
I go back to gardening, the fate of a retired pilot.
I go back to gardening, the fate of a retired pilot.
Joined: Jun 2011
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 4
Likes: 1
From: Port Townsend,WA
Lonewolf_50
I noted that the Flightglobal article referenced in #1242 stating Abnormal Law was not entered was dated in January of this year, prior to recovery of the data recorder. I would guess it must be re-evaluated in light of the flight data now available. In Abnormal law I've read that only the manual trim wheel would alter the angle of the THS. I've also read that at 13 degrees nose up THS, the sidestick would not have authority to lower the nose. So this is a big and unresolved issue.
I noted that the Flightglobal article referenced in #1242 stating Abnormal Law was not entered was dated in January of this year, prior to recovery of the data recorder. I would guess it must be re-evaluated in light of the flight data now available. In Abnormal law I've read that only the manual trim wheel would alter the angle of the THS. I've also read that at 13 degrees nose up THS, the sidestick would not have authority to lower the nose. So this is a big and unresolved issue.
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 875
Likes: 0
From: Cornwall-on-Hudson, New York
are you suggesting people shouldn't have the right to express whatever they think, or that none is valid?
Hence random noise. My rule of thumb is that when a thread begins to top five pages, it's time to move on. Everything important to say has been said.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,424
Likes: 0
From: Smogsville
I noted that the Flightglobal article referenced in #1242 stating Abnormal Law was not entered was dated in January of this year
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: thousand oaks ca
stepwilk
"Hence random noise. My rule of thumb is that when a thread begins to top five pages, it's time to move on. Everything important to say has been said."
So practice what you preach and move on, stepwik
"Hence random noise. My rule of thumb is that when a thread begins to top five pages, it's time to move on. Everything important to say has been said."
So practice what you preach and move on, stepwik
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
From: UK
Indeed The Shadow a great post. Thank you.
However let's cut to the chase. Has anyone flown the AF scenario in the simulator and successfully brought the A330 out of its super stall? It is either possible or it isn't.
Now with the enlightenment that it is not just T tailed jets that can end up in this predicament, then some of the protections that are fitted to rear engined aircraft must be considered for other types. High speed, high altitude stall recovery must be trained for or preferably, a better awareness of what is causing an erroneous speed indication. If Air France knew there were issues with the Thales pitot tubes, it was allegedly grossly negligent that they did not either train for the situation the crew of AF 447 found themselves in, or accelerated the replacement of the defective parts.
Perhaps it is time to look at a safer design from the past. The VC10 is the only T-tailed airliner never to have been involved in a deep stall situation. The "10" had a very large and powerful tailplane which was mounted high and swept back. If a stall did occur the elevators were situated well aft from the wing blanking effect. The AF A-330 was lost from an altitude of 38,000 feet, but the VC10's were frequently flown at 43,000 feet with a little help from the droops. Other designs such as the Trident and 1-11 proved in testing to be irrecoverable in a deep stall without a tail chute.
I find it hard to believe that with all of its automated protective systems, this A330 was lost from such a high altitude in an apparently unrecoverable stall. Perhaps Boeing have got it right?
However let's cut to the chase. Has anyone flown the AF scenario in the simulator and successfully brought the A330 out of its super stall? It is either possible or it isn't.
Now with the enlightenment that it is not just T tailed jets that can end up in this predicament, then some of the protections that are fitted to rear engined aircraft must be considered for other types. High speed, high altitude stall recovery must be trained for or preferably, a better awareness of what is causing an erroneous speed indication. If Air France knew there were issues with the Thales pitot tubes, it was allegedly grossly negligent that they did not either train for the situation the crew of AF 447 found themselves in, or accelerated the replacement of the defective parts.
Perhaps it is time to look at a safer design from the past. The VC10 is the only T-tailed airliner never to have been involved in a deep stall situation. The "10" had a very large and powerful tailplane which was mounted high and swept back. If a stall did occur the elevators were situated well aft from the wing blanking effect. The AF A-330 was lost from an altitude of 38,000 feet, but the VC10's were frequently flown at 43,000 feet with a little help from the droops. Other designs such as the Trident and 1-11 proved in testing to be irrecoverable in a deep stall without a tail chute.
I find it hard to believe that with all of its automated protective systems, this A330 was lost from such a high altitude in an apparently unrecoverable stall. Perhaps Boeing have got it right?
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 3rd June 2011 at 09:54.
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,777
Likes: 0
From: Germany
Hi,
Unfortunately .. IMHO you can't reproduce this in the sim with realism.
On the other hand I suspect (after all the allegations in the press or experts about possible prob with Airbus procedures .. etc ..) that Airbus will make a real demonstration flight and introduce a loss of pitot ... and demonstrate that it was no problems for continue safely the flight.
They will save their ass
However let's cut to the chase. Has anyone flown the AF scenario in the simulator and successfully brought the A330 out of its super stall? It is either possible or it isn't.
On the other hand I suspect (after all the allegations in the press or experts about possible prob with Airbus procedures .. etc ..) that Airbus will make a real demonstration flight and introduce a loss of pitot ... and demonstrate that it was no problems for continue safely the flight.
They will save their ass
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
From: here
I find it hard to believe that with all of its automated protective systems, this A330 was lost from such a high altitude in an apparently unrecoverable stall. Perhaps Boeing have got it right?
- To conclude it was unrecoverable we would need to know that there were efforts made suitable to recover it. We know of one ND input very late in the game the a/c seemed to be responsive to, but not how long it was sustained. In fact we have no information whatsoever about what happened the following 1m30s
- I can guarantee you it's possible to stall a Boeing. And by pulling up you're not likely to recover that one either
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
From: UK
Test pilot "Cats Eyes" Cunningham put a Trident into a deep stall and recovered.
I expect nothing less of AIRBUS and its A-330 test pilots.
The AF 447 crash has shown that in the certification process, there is a gaping hole.
I expect nothing less of AIRBUS and its A-330 test pilots.
The AF 447 crash has shown that in the certification process, there is a gaping hole.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,569
Likes: 1
From: Florida
"Hence random noise. My rule of thumb is that when a thread begins to top five pages, it's time to move on. Everything important to say has been said."
So practice what you preach and move on, stepwik
So practice what you preach and move on, stepwik
Quite a few of us are waiting for some new facts rather than a rehash of what might have happened.
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: KPIE
A/S / Alt
After the pitot was blocked with ice it performed as an altimeter. It would direct the pilot in a counter intuitive and divergent fashion, stick back resulting in increasing indicated airspeed. Stick forward would indicate a speed decrease, so much so that the AOA was disabled.
This is the saddest story since Aero Peru.
This is the saddest story since Aero Peru.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: UK
reply to Count Niemantznarr:
yes whilst in testing recovery by an experienced test pilot can be done but in practise a number of tridents and other aircraft have been lost in a `super stall`;
ASN Aircraft accident Hawker Siddeley HS-121 Trident 1C G-ARPY Felthorpe
ASN Aircraft accident Hawker Siddeley HS-121 Trident 1C G-ARPI Staines
ASN Aircraft accident Canadair CRJ100 (CL-600-2B19) C-FCRJ Byers, KS
yes whilst in testing recovery by an experienced test pilot can be done but in practise a number of tridents and other aircraft have been lost in a `super stall`;
ASN Aircraft accident Hawker Siddeley HS-121 Trident 1C G-ARPY Felthorpe
ASN Aircraft accident Hawker Siddeley HS-121 Trident 1C G-ARPI Staines
ASN Aircraft accident Canadair CRJ100 (CL-600-2B19) C-FCRJ Byers, KS
