AF447 wreckage found
So in Cruise or other low activity times am I not allowed to look down to my right and use the CMC display on the centre CDU? You might as well remove it then!!
Please re read my post, i did say in brackets that they wouldn't have had time to check it.
Grrr
Please re read my post, i did say in brackets that they wouldn't have had time to check it.
Grrr
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'Baby' pilot at controls
'Baby' pilot at controls of doomed Air France Airbus | The Australian
Is this based on info officially provided by the BEA?
Thoughts?
HE was one of Air France's "company babies": a dashing 32-year-old junior pilot - and a keen amateur yachtsman - who had been qualified to fly the airline's ultra-sophisticated Airbus A330 jet for barely a year.
Yet despite his inexperience, Pierre-Cedric Bonin found himself responsible for the lives of 228 passengers and crew members on June 1, 2009, when the cockpit of his $190 million aircraft lit up with terrifying and contradictory alarm signals en route from Rio de Janeiro to Paris.
Yet despite his inexperience, Pierre-Cedric Bonin found himself responsible for the lives of 228 passengers and crew members on June 1, 2009, when the cockpit of his $190 million aircraft lit up with terrifying and contradictory alarm signals en route from Rio de Janeiro to Paris.
Robert [sitting in the RH seat] shouted with increasing desperation for the captain...
The question being asked in the industry is why, given that there was a 50,000ft thunderstorm near the plane's flight path, the youngest of the three pilots, with the least flying time, was at the controls.
“It seems as though they were just clueless,” says Mike Doerr, a former Airbus A320 captain who charters private jets in California. “The response to the invalid speed data doesn't make any sense unless they also had a Mach warning (that the plane was going faster than its mechanical limits).”
So far, there has been no such evidence. At night and in bad weather, however, there is also the possibility the pilots had become disoriented, or did not know which instruments to believe and therefore which warnings to prioritise.
“I don't have any more indications,”
“ Bonin is heard saying on the cockpit voice recorder, his voice still calm.
Doerr said he doubted that American pilots, who typically come from military backgrounds, would have been overwhelmed. “The European airlines select people with virtually no flight time at all and train them pretty much from the ground up,” he said.
“They are 'company babies' who rise up through the organisation. Whereas if you get your experience in the navy or air force, there's an emphasis on trial by fire.”
So far, there has been no such evidence. At night and in bad weather, however, there is also the possibility the pilots had become disoriented, or did not know which instruments to believe and therefore which warnings to prioritise.
“I don't have any more indications,”
“ Bonin is heard saying on the cockpit voice recorder, his voice still calm.
Doerr said he doubted that American pilots, who typically come from military backgrounds, would have been overwhelmed. “The European airlines select people with virtually no flight time at all and train them pretty much from the ground up,” he said.
“They are 'company babies' who rise up through the organisation. Whereas if you get your experience in the navy or air force, there's an emphasis on trial by fire.”
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AOA indication?
I don't understand the comments regarding the lack of AOA diplayed as being an issue: is it too complicated to substract Flight Path Angle from Pitch?
Pitch-Path=AOA
That is lesson 2 or 3 from any PPL training...
Am I missing something?
Pitch-Path=AOA
That is lesson 2 or 3 from any PPL training...
Am I missing something?
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AOA
Guess what: The A330 has been retrofitted with a' backup speed scale' (BUSS) in case all three ADC's fail. The BUSS provides a coarse speed reference, based on AOA.
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I believe that the stall warning alarm on the A330 is derived from some temperature probes (hot-wire flow rate type?) and control surface status? i.e. Incipient stall is calculated. Does the algorithm still work when the aircraft has gone so far out of normal flight conditions? Is it even possible to test it in anything like a real-life situation?
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@BOAC
alternate law: I thought there was a line referring to an auto-correction to prevent overspeed. I can't find it anymore. IF the PF behaved that way, it looks like a plausible scenario.
I've been in several deep stall scenario's in normal law in the sim, when preparing training scenario's in different laws. Everytime the stall would be uncontrollable, the high THS setting (max) was the cause.
There is not much THS awareness among Airbus pilots.
alternate law: I thought there was a line referring to an auto-correction to prevent overspeed. I can't find it anymore. IF the PF behaved that way, it looks like a plausible scenario.
I've been in several deep stall scenario's in normal law in the sim, when preparing training scenario's in different laws. Everytime the stall would be uncontrollable, the high THS setting (max) was the cause.
There is not much THS awareness among Airbus pilots.
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@nitpicker Of course you could look into that screen during low workload. But what do you expect to see there, besides a normal AOA value? By the way, I agree with you that any pilot should know what are normal indications, especially attitude information.
Originally Posted by Thermostat
I take it you haven't seen the satellite photo with the flight path superimposed on It. It shows the extent of the storm system with the route going through the cells. Can you explain to us all just why the A330 went out of control after entering the system? Why did the F/O make a call to the F/As advising them of turbulence ? There are none so blind as those who will not see. Why would the plane go out of control if it hadn't been close to the coffin corner in turbulence? Why would all the ASIs stop working simultaneously and all those warnings begin (some of them false) if there was no supercooled water in the CBs to cause icing of the pitots? Please answer these questions for us.
Who said that you can only get the conditions that block the A330 pitot system in Cbs?
Given the benign nature of the comms with the cabin about the impending turbulence ( "in two minutes we should enter
an area where it’ll move about a bit more than at the moment, you should watch out"), I hardly think that the crew knowingly flew into a Cb.
I'm not saying they didn't fly into the top of a Cb; merely that there is no evidence to suggest they did. As for the Sat Pic, I hardly think that could be used to claim they did fly through a Cb given the scale of the image, as CONF iture has said.
Don't see something that is not there, Thermostat.
I've just been trying to read through FCOM 1 Flight controls reversion section. After i took a headache pill I found that following any ADR disagree reversion to ALT LAW the protections lost are:-
1/ Load Factor
2/ Pitch Att
3/ High AoA
4/ High Speed
5/ Bank Angle
And 6/ Low Energy
So to me it appears that the aircraft would not have "pitched up" automatically during what it thought was an overspeed situation.
It was basically left to the Pilots to correct any perceived overspeed/underspeed.
1/ Load Factor
2/ Pitch Att
3/ High AoA
4/ High Speed
5/ Bank Angle
And 6/ Low Energy
So to me it appears that the aircraft would not have "pitched up" automatically during what it thought was an overspeed situation.
It was basically left to the Pilots to correct any perceived overspeed/underspeed.
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Further that Low speed stability protection change from AOA to Airspeed based and the symbols on the speed tape change from Alpha prot /Alpha max to Vsw.
With the flaps/slats in use and 5 to 10 kts above stall speed the Aircraft will induce a forward demand on the elevators, which the Pilot can override.
This was not applicable to AF 447 in cruise.
So any pitch up/down demand was as a result of the Pilots alone, they did not have any protections helping them.
Also don't blame the THS trimming up to 13 deg nose up. It was a result of the Pilots demanding back stick pitch up ( to counter what they thought was an overspeed ) the speed obviously decayed during the manoeuvre requiring more and more trim to help it satisfy the Pilots demand.
With the flaps/slats in use and 5 to 10 kts above stall speed the Aircraft will induce a forward demand on the elevators, which the Pilot can override.
This was not applicable to AF 447 in cruise.
So any pitch up/down demand was as a result of the Pilots alone, they did not have any protections helping them.
Also don't blame the THS trimming up to 13 deg nose up. It was a result of the Pilots demanding back stick pitch up ( to counter what they thought was an overspeed ) the speed obviously decayed during the manoeuvre requiring more and more trim to help it satisfy the Pilots demand.
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Am I right in thinking that -10,000 ft/min is around 100kts down? In which case if their airspeed was <60kts a normal attitude would produce a very high AoA.
If so they may have a normal attitude displayed, unknown airspeed indication, and no stall warning. Perhaps only clue was high rate of descent which they might not have believed given normal attitude?
Edit: and think how far down they would have to pitch to get a sensible AoA back.
If so they may have a normal attitude displayed, unknown airspeed indication, and no stall warning. Perhaps only clue was high rate of descent which they might not have believed given normal attitude?
Edit: and think how far down they would have to pitch to get a sensible AoA back.
Last edited by cwatters; 30th May 2011 at 09:36.
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Catastrophic sim training
Catastrophic situation: Not only some "system error" or circumstance - but also the potential consequence when it's not optimally handled. (Spin - stall - steep dive +70 degree - 80 - 90 degree bank angle. Upside down and stalled - you name it- )
To put the yoke forward when one get a shaker stall alarm - but the plane is not actually (fully) stalled - is not a catastrophic scenario -
A stall with 40 AoA and 10000 f/s sinkrate is catastrophic - especially if airplane looses pitch authority at that configuration.
I can not see why you should not practice even "drop wing" and steep diving to get out of stall etc - I did it. - at age 14 - -in a real sailplane - from 3000 feet. If it's not possible in the sim this year - why don't you make an appointment with an sailplane-instructor - he would be happy to guide you. OK it would not be the same as your wide body workhorse.- but perhaps for some take the mystery out of the stall and spin configurations. It could be great fun also.
To put the yoke forward when one get a shaker stall alarm - but the plane is not actually (fully) stalled - is not a catastrophic scenario -
A stall with 40 AoA and 10000 f/s sinkrate is catastrophic - especially if airplane looses pitch authority at that configuration.
I can not see why you should not practice even "drop wing" and steep diving to get out of stall etc - I did it. - at age 14 - -in a real sailplane - from 3000 feet. If it's not possible in the sim this year - why don't you make an appointment with an sailplane-instructor - he would be happy to guide you. OK it would not be the same as your wide body workhorse.- but perhaps for some take the mystery out of the stall and spin configurations. It could be great fun also.
Last edited by Ask21; 30th May 2011 at 10:24.
Yes it may work if you have enough Altitude left to pull out without over stressing the wings. Certainly in their position worth a try perhaps.
But a 200 tonne Airbus heading downhill at 10,000 fpm at less than 60 KIAS is going to be near impossible to recover before you hit the surface.
You'd have to roll 90 deg, wait for the nose to drop and the speed to quickly build then hope like he'll there was enough room left to recover without over stressing the wings.......
But a 200 tonne Airbus heading downhill at 10,000 fpm at less than 60 KIAS is going to be near impossible to recover before you hit the surface.
You'd have to roll 90 deg, wait for the nose to drop and the speed to quickly build then hope like he'll there was enough room left to recover without over stressing the wings.......
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I can not see why you should not be practice even "drop wing" and steep diving to get out of stall etc - I did it. - at age 14 - -in a real sailplane - from 3000 feet. If it's not possible in the sim - why don't you make an appointment with an sailplane-instructor - It could be great fun also
Why wasn't full power applied? They can't have recognised the stall.
astonmartin
quote you: @ Lemain. Stall warning on the A330 is based on angle of attack.
Are you saying, as I have seen similar statements in this forum, that the A330 stall warning system does not compute:- Angle of attack with modifications from airspeed, flap position and pitch rate inputs?
Are you saying, as I have seen similar statements in this forum, that the A330 stall warning system does not compute:- Angle of attack with modifications from airspeed, flap position and pitch rate inputs?
