Required Number of QRHs in Flight Deck
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From: paradise
It's simple mate the role can be altered any time thus PF can become PNF in split of the second. Bear in mind that being PF doesn't mean being in charge, PIC is always in command and can take controls whenever deemed necessary. Now picture this: F/O is PF, he/she takes off and for whatever reason let it be technical or otherwise the PIC decides or has to take controls and there's a need to perform checklist in QRH. Now what? You stepped onto a slippery ground, how will you pass the QRH to the F/O and fly at the same time. Remember, one has to be on controls at all times. Big deal, probably not, big loophole to be held liable, probably yes. 
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: A tropical island.
If the QRH is kept within easy reach of both crewmembers (since we're gonna be swiss watch pilots about this) then only one is required.
However, I shudder to think that people are so concerned that passing a small pamphlet in flight may cause the aircraft to crash. 0 or 1, final answer.
However, I shudder to think that people are so concerned that passing a small pamphlet in flight may cause the aircraft to crash. 0 or 1, final answer.
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From: paradise
aviatorhi, once again mate there's assigned place for QRH on the flight deck and it's being the side pocket on each pilot's side. You may think of it as NO BIG DEAL but I would like to see you do it in the heat of the battle. If it was meant to be within easy reach for both pilots then the storage place would be somewhere in in the middle, well IT'S NOT and there's a reason behind.
I didn't bring in SMOKE into the play yet. Once the flight deck is filled with smoke and you donned the masks struggling to see the instruments well good luck with looking for QRH and passing it across trying to perform procedure like smoke removal.
I didn't bring in SMOKE into the play yet. Once the flight deck is filled with smoke and you donned the masks struggling to see the instruments well good luck with looking for QRH and passing it across trying to perform procedure like smoke removal.
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From: Canada
Upper Air, after 54 years dealing with TC I can assure you that this is the case, which might having something to do with their prang rate, so bloody involved in paper work they have a history of little foul ups, such as forgetting to lower the gear whilst landing,besides I just cant resist getting in a dig at the "Aces" staffing our regulator, sorry about the drift!
Last edited by clunckdriver; 24th March 2011 at 14:00. Reason: Cat walked on keys!
Joined: Sep 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: away from home
aviatorhi, it's simple once understood. AFM is approved manual- NOT to be used in flight. FCOM & QRH aren't approved but suplemental to AFM TO BE USED in flight according to airbus. The reasons behind are, firstly, to be able to sell the aircrafts in ''raw conditions'' ready for certification by national authorities, secondly, to escape liability. Once again it's written by lawyers not for pilots. Back to the question 1 or 2?
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: I wouldn't know.
Library as in paper library? You really lug paper around on your flightdecks still? No paper required at all anymore, we do get QRHs provided as convenience items though, but they are not required in paper form anymore. Not to mention FCOMs or AFMs, those are long gone.
Of course, the EFBs hold all the information as well, but they are pretty error-prone (running on windows xp) and might get dark very fast once their electrical supply is cut off.
Of course, the EFBs hold all the information as well, but they are pretty error-prone (running on windows xp) and might get dark very fast once their electrical supply is cut off.
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: A tropical island.
I am sorry that you may miss some great flying by the world`s greatest professionals
Based on what I've read in this thread seems more like "learned behavior" to me, or "group think".
Last edited by aviatorhi; 26th March 2011 at 23:30.
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From: paradise
we do get QRHs provided as convenience items though
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From: earth
9.G
Really?
My company uses the verbiage required and desired in a legal document called the GMM that lists the aircraft library. It is amazing how many documents are just "desired". But I will say that an all fleet's Boeing, MDC and Airbus one QRH is required. You have a narrow minded attitude and I had mixed feelings about replying to your rubbish.
Bottom line is Boeing or MDC may have never suggested a QRH for aircraft like the DC-10 or B727 so there may be many operators out there today operating without a QRH. As I have heard in this thread Airbus is big on them.
I would give the advice to anyone who has a question like this to ask you friendly AMT/AME. I am sure a GMM or document prescribed by your CAA that is similar to it will reveal all the documents that are required to be in the cockpit of your aircraft.
I suggest you forget the word convenience ASAP. Only legal requirements matter, mate. Get used to it.
Bottom line is Boeing or MDC may have never suggested a QRH for aircraft like the DC-10 or B727 so there may be many operators out there today operating without a QRH. As I have heard in this thread Airbus is big on them.
I would give the advice to anyone who has a question like this to ask you friendly AMT/AME. I am sure a GMM or document prescribed by your CAA that is similar to it will reveal all the documents that are required to be in the cockpit of your aircraft.
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From: paradise
G27, reference please? No reference, no discussion. All I know, with my narrow mind, is that I haven't seen not a single operator, including some of the worst low cost, operating with 1 QRH on airbus, regardless LPC or not. Why the hell would the inspector write it up then? All the rest is up to your imagination mate.
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: A tropical island.
9.G, because inspectors are as narrow minded as you are, had one try to write me up for flying under VFR in a 121 airplane (commercial operation in the US), he said "it's shocking you did that, it's illegal, it can't be done", until he was proven wrong by his own office and shown to be what a bufoon he really was. If you're entire basis for argument is that it must be so because an inspector said so then "All the rest is up to your imagination mate."
"
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From: paradise
aviatorhi, keep the emotions aside mate. Let's keep it simple, shall we?
You say on the airbus 1 QNH is required.
I say on the airbus 2 QNH are required.
It's a word against word. Gimme the reference and I'll be happy to announce you're right. No further BS except reference, keep it objective. Can you do it?
THANK YOU.
You say on the airbus 1 QNH is required.
I say on the airbus 2 QNH are required.
It's a word against word. Gimme the reference and I'll be happy to announce you're right. No further BS except reference, keep it objective. Can you do it?
THANK YOU.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 461
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From: A tropical island.
9.G
I'm not gonna go around unproving things which haven't been proven in the first place. You have failed to provide reference where it is explicitly noted that two are required, it is only said that a QRH is required onboard the aircraft. When you provide the appropriate reference for two being required then my argument of "as specified in the type certification of the aircraft" will still hold true. The fact of the matter is for all your detailed examples from the Airbus AFM, AOM or whatever manual you provide there has not been an explicit statement of two being required and in each case the QRH is referred to in the singular.
Now I'm gonna go beat my head against a wall because that might actually be more productive than arguing with CMLs.
I'm not gonna go around unproving things which haven't been proven in the first place. You have failed to provide reference where it is explicitly noted that two are required, it is only said that a QRH is required onboard the aircraft. When you provide the appropriate reference for two being required then my argument of "as specified in the type certification of the aircraft" will still hold true. The fact of the matter is for all your detailed examples from the Airbus AFM, AOM or whatever manual you provide there has not been an explicit statement of two being required and in each case the QRH is referred to in the singular.
Now I'm gonna go beat my head against a wall because that might actually be more productive than arguing with CMLs.
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From: paradise
aviatorhi, none of us has provided the prove for either of statements thus leaving us with the deductive logic and historical values. So far the odds are against the statement of 1 QRH is required for obvious reason and pro 2 QRHs on airbus fleet. Once again, prove me wrong and I have no problems to admit of being wrong.
why would anyone do that?
We then take it off and replace with two of our customised QRH's on arrival at base
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: A tropical island.
Please quit feeding the troll who lives in dreamland (paradise), I regret providing an argument for him to put in one end then splatter out the other in the first place.
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From: paradise
jabbara, you might wanna check out the 10th airbus training symposium, going digital project for FCOM & QRH if you have access to that and don't listen to the dilettantes. This is for orientation. As you know EU OPS speaks of operational manuals dividing it in parts A,B,C,D. B being the aircrafts operational manuals comprising of FCOM & QRH. Here's the regulatory requirement: (EU-OPS 1.130)
Parts of the Operations Manual to be carried:
-Operations Policy Manual (Part A – General/Basic)
-Conduct of the flight ( Part-B FCOM, QRH)
etc...
EU-OPS 1.1040 - General Rules for Operations Manuals
An operator shall ensure that all operations personnel have easy access to a copy of each part of the Operations Manual, which is relevant to their duties. In addition, the operator shall supply crew members with a personal copy of, or sections from, Parts A and B of the Operations Manual as are relevant for their study.
This is for orientation. As you know EU OPS speaks of operational manuals dividing it in parts A,B,C,D. B being the aircrafts operational manuals comprising of FCOM & QRH. Here's the regulatory requirement: (EU-OPS 1.130)Parts of the Operations Manual to be carried:
-Operations Policy Manual (Part A – General/Basic)
-Conduct of the flight ( Part-B FCOM, QRH)
etc...
EU-OPS 1.1040 - General Rules for Operations Manuals
An operator shall ensure that all operations personnel have easy access to a copy of each part of the Operations Manual, which is relevant to their duties. In addition, the operator shall supply crew members with a personal copy of, or sections from, Parts A and B of the Operations Manual as are relevant for their study.
Last edited by 9.G; 28th March 2011 at 01:29.