A320: (PNF) Foot on Rudder Pedals (during Taxi, T/O and LDG)

[higher320]

Dear All,


I have a question that I would like to get your opinion on.

I fly A320 as a captain, All my experience is on Airbus Aircrafts.

Recently, I have noticed some of the copilots leave their foot on the rudder pedals even if they are PNF.

the story is, I was taxying one day, and started the FLT CTRL check, While i was checking the ELEV/AIL, I found that the rudder pedals are stiff to control the Aircraft on the taxiway centerline. then i noticed the copilot foot on the pedals, so i told him to relax his foot and then i felt a difference.

Same thing, with the same copilot happened again on the T/O roll, I felt the same pressure on the pedals and told him to relax his foot.

during the flight, I asked him if someone told him to have his foot on the pedals while he is PNF and he said Yes. A captain told him to do like that """Just In Case""" the Engine fails on T/O and the Captain can not control the Aircraft !!!

I have seen it now with other copilots, and each one of them was told somthing different.

I don't blame the copilots, they are doing what they were told to do.

some of them were told to put foot on pedals while PNF to follow the inputs of the other pilot, or to be ready to brake if necessary.

In my opinion, PF should always have full access to rudder pedals input "if required" and the PNF should have the foot on the floor. as when the PNF have foot on pedals, it feels strange and heavy pedals specially on T/O.

Your opinion is highly appreciated and considred.

[compressor stall]

PNF should have feet on the pedals during PF rudder check and follow the movement. FCTM NO-040 p6.

[captainng]

guarding the controls

yes a lot of newish guys stick there feet on the rudders during taxi and take off and it makes you feel like you have a control problem.
my general comment to them gaurding the controls is- if you had to guard brittany spears would you be close by or always touching her. it seems to get the message across. i never tell them off as if i do fail to hit the brakes for a corner i want them close by to do it for me!!!
you only need there feet close by and not physically touching them as i use rudder to steer on the ground as my choice.

regards NG

[Bus Driver Man]

As a First Officer, I always keep my feet on the pedals when the captain is taxying and flying manual.
Ofcourse I don't put any pressure on them. Never had any complaints about it. (I know what a pain in the ass it can be if the captain puts any pressure on the pedals when I take off. So it's not only a FO problem )
Just in case you have to brake suddenly without losing any time or in case something happens and you have to take over during TO and landing, which are critical phases.

What do you do as a captain while the FO is flying? I hope you keep your feet on the pedals as well.
Imagine: New FO, engine failure during TO and he pushes the wrong pedal... If you keep your feet on the pedals, you can notice this immediately and correct his action or take over.
Same could happen with a stressed captain, so I always keep my hand and feet on the controls. (Airbus sidestick, not conventional controls)

[PantLoad]

Again, what does your company's SOP say?

My former company's SOP says, with regard to the rudder pedals, that the non-flying pilot keep his/her feet lightly on the rudder pedals. The intent is to 'be there' if necessary, but not to restrict the flying pilot in any way.

With regard to the sidestick, the hand is to be adjacent to the stick (not 'on' it), ready at a moments notice to hit the red button and announce, "I have control."

Having heavy feet on the rudder pedals (by the non-flying pilot) to the point where the flying pilot has to push hard to get any kind of movement is absolutely wrong. This falls into the category of two people on the controls at once.....which is a major 'no-no'.

Only one person on the controls at a time, and who is controlling the aircraft is explicitly stated and known.

Fly safe,


PantLoad

[Alt Crz Green]

As a First Officer, I always keep my feet on the pedals when the captain is taxying and flying manual.

Not on my aircraft you wouldn't be. As I wouldn't when PM.
The instinct to do something when you're on the controls as PM would lead to a risk of overcontrolling. This risk is far greater than the risk presented by the PF incorrectly sending the aircraft irretrievably out of control in the split second between incorrect corrective action beginning and the PM taking over control to remedy the situation. As it would indeed be only a split second from moving hands and feet in proximity to the controls onto the controls if necessary.
Think about the big picture of what you do.
Finally, how fast do you taxi in your company that you think instant corrective action might be necessary?

[John Citizen]

I find it very annoying when the other pilot has his feet on the rudder pedals too

Its even more annoying when they start making inputs. Inputs which are entirely unnecessary for any other reason than for the captain to reassert his authority I think. Some people just love power and control I think.

Once I was doing a line check with a check captain in the jumpseat and the aircraft kept on slowing down on its own (as the captain as PNF applied the brakes), and I was not even taxiing fast at all.

I was taxiing in accordance with SOP, regarding speed limits and minimal brake applications (to save wear).

I found it extremely annoying and perhaps should have raised my concerns to the check captain but in the end I said nothing.

For example, if I am approaching the holding point at less than 5 knots with no danger of crossing the line, is it necessary for the other pilot to make a brake input ?

These days I taxi a lot slower (2 knots) and stop well early (50 m short) just in case the captain gets excited and jumps on the brakes for me.

[sevenstrokeroll]

dear sir:

except in extraordinary situations, only ONE PERSON should have their hands/feet on the flight controls.

its that simple.

[Tee Emm]

and he pushes the wrong pedal... If you keep your feet on the pedals, you can notice this immediately and correct his action or take over

And how about if you as the first officer mis-identify the wrong engine and in your split second eagerness to save the aircraft from disaster and win a medal, you overide the captain's input and stuff your foot on the wrong rudder?

Suggest it is good airmanship to keep your hands and feet away from the controls unless you are doing the flying - not the monitoring.

[sand_groper]

Tee Emm... completely agree with your post, however the same also applies to an overly eager Captain.

Whilst there certainly is a requirement to guard the flight controls, those pilots who choose to achieve this by physically touching the flight controls, and are unable to do so without inhibiting inputs from the PF invalidate the PNF/PF concept.

In the event that it is an intentional intervention, if you don't like what you see;

1) Raise concern verbally

2) If an immediate threat exists and there is no response... take over!


Wouldn't it be nice if there was a dual input warning for the brakes on the bus....

[A37575]

I find it very annoying when the other pilot has his feet on the rudder pedals too

One thing I often see, which, while not annoying, can be quite mesmerising to the observer, are pilots who "walk" the throttles. It's as if they have a hand tremor like Parkinson's Disease. The theory, I was told is"walking the throttles" gives a more accurate power setting. Some loony theory, I must say.

The first time I ever saw this strange and disturbing affliction was on the venerable DC3. On take off the pilot would rapidly oscillate each throttle on the way up to 48 inches of manifold pressure and it intrigued me to watch the prop RPM needles and manifold pressure needles jerk their way up the gauges.

I am sure the stop and start motion was not very good for the engines, but just about every DC3 pilot I flew with, did it. One explanation given to me was the throttle friction nuts in those days were prone to binding and playing walkies on the throttles somehow prevented ham-fisted pilots from over-boosting.

Old myths certainly die hard although throttle walking has been in vogue for well over half a century. Mainly on propeller aircraft though.

But to see this happening on jet transports one wonders why this is so (with apologies from pinching the expression of Professor Sumner-Miller).

Another harmless habit which I can assure readers will not send them blind, are those pilots who seem unable to keep their hand still when on the throttles. One sees their fingers claw like on the throttles and at the same time wriggling them like playing a harp. (harp - a stringed musical instrument played by plucking) "harp" -to talk persistently on some subject -like A37575..

Knee tremblers in the cockpit can be distracting, too. There you are picking up speed down the runway and out of the corner of your eye you see the copilot's knee jerking up and down as in a nervous tic.

So too are the "hoverer's" whose hands or fingers are poised ready to turn the heading knob in an instant or hover over the gear lever waiting impatiently for the command of gear up or gear down.

Most of us put up with these petty annoyances in the cockpit that really distract or p.ss you off. Yet, we were well brought up and sent to the best schools and too well mannered to attack the offending party with harsh words so you resort to slumping in your allotted control seat and suffer in silence but you really want to explode with WHAT THE FCUK ARE YOU DOING NOW!

[John Citizen]

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a dual input warning for the brakes on the bus....

Unfortunately some of these "control freaks" are aware that they can make very small sidetsick inputs without the dual input alert going off, yet i sometimes see the green light (sidetsick priority light) flash in front of me

[bArt2]

but you really want to explode with WHAT THE FCUK ARE YOU DOING NOW!

There are also nice ways to get your message across

[Flogged Horse]

A37575, I would hate to fly with you.

I'd get tired of sitting like a robot wondering how I am pi$$ing you off now. Sounds like you are another of these, I am better because I am older types. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love learning from the guys that have been doing this longer than I have been standing on this earth. I have the upmost respect for their experience. I think most of the older guys that I am lucky enough to fly with have the most superior airmanship I have ever seen., I am constantly striving to conduct myself like them, however it takes time. Thank goodness you have the manners you say you do, as it would be most unpleasant if you were to voice your opinion about all of these petty human traits.

Blue skies and continue to suffer in silence for the sake of the young guy trying to learn from you.

FH

[BOAC]

Yes, but don't you think that says it all? There are times when 'warm and fluffy' just does not cut it.

John C - I have read (and responded) to your other posts on this topic, and in view of what appears to be a repetitive, significant and on-going problem you have, I begin to wonder if you need to be just that little more assertive in the way you 'co-pilot'?

You could try A37575's solution.......................

Originally Posted by Flogged Horse

I'd get tired of sitting like a robot wondering how I am pi$$ing you off now.

- to me, that shows a similar worrying state of mind. Would you have NO idea how to resolve this?

[Flogged Horse]

I resolve any issues in the cockpit just fine thank you BOAC. We are after all two adults in a cockpit are we not?

I perhaps did not explain myself properly.

We all have habits. It is what makes us individuals. I therefore embrace the idea that different people are going to do things in a manner different to myself. Providing it isn't against SOPS, who am I to tell them to stop shaking a knee. I have flown with guys who are a lot ruder than A37575. They just don't stop whinging about everything from my tie length, to my pen selection, to the way that I tap my knee to a beat (I play drums I can't stop it). The whole time I am thinking, can't we spend the time passing on the hot tips?

Now we are way off topic. I as a copilot would not touch the controls when the other guy/gal has control. Unless it was in my SOP's to do so. I would expect the same in return. As for where the guy keeps his hand to change the heading bug? Do what you want. It is your hand and your job, just don't stuff it up !!

Have I eased your concern BOAC?

[Hobo]

As a First Officer, I always keep my feet on the pedals when the captain is taxying and flying manual.

I agree with Alt Crz Green, not on my aircraft you wouldn't.

Fairly shortly after I moved to the LHS, I nearly called for an abandoned take off on one take off. When I started the take off roll, the rudder pedals felt unusually solid, to check this out I tried putting in a big input (still at very low speed), and noticed the F/O's knees moving, I told him to get clear of the controls and all was OK.

I then kept an eye on all subsequent F/O's and found that in particular, ex helicopter and/or military pilots had this appalling habit. It was, and still is, not company procedure to do this, anymore than there are two hands on the throttles, the flap lever or gear lever.

As a keen manual flyer whenever possible, I found this irritating and potentially dangerous. As a Capt PNF, I never touched the controls. If I had any qualms about the F/O's capabilities, I would not let him fly or recommend him for further training.

[Airbus_a321]

PNF/PM feet on the floor (always ready to take over just in case) - but never ever on the pedals !
the same with the stick hands-off for PNF/PM

[Bus Driver Man]

Not on my aircraft you wouldn't be. As I wouldn't when PM.

I agree with Alt Crz Green, not on my aircraft you wouldn't.

I don't know if it's written in our company SOP's, but that's the way I've been trained.
All captains where I work do exactly the same (TO and landing. Most off them without putting any pressure on it. There are exceptions, and it annoys me as well when they limit my movement).

Since I don't put any pressure on the rudder, I don't see the problem. You wouldn't even notice it if we flew together. But I'll take it into account if we ever do

[Airbus_a321]

I don't put any pressure on ...

..don't be so shure. Doing some researches long time ago, they found out that there was sometimes already a slight - but nevertheless - an actual and feelable input on the sidestick from the pilot while just using the toggle-switch for doing calls, which has, while on manual flight, always to be corrected by the PF -

since then: hands off - feet off - but anytime ready to take-over, of course.