Flare Mode on A320
Pensador
Dont confuse flying the aircraft with the autopilot off..... with not following the flight directors demands.
It is perfectly permissible to use the pnf(pm) to select alt/hdgs/speed etc and the pf to follow the "programmed" settings especially if the (now overloaded!!) pnf is a slightly smug or overconfident low hours pay to fly cadet
who needs putting back in their box
Threads like this prove that the Airbus takes a looong time to really thoroughly understand despite all of our best efforts.
Dont confuse flying the aircraft with the autopilot off..... with not following the flight directors demands.
It is perfectly permissible to use the pnf(pm) to select alt/hdgs/speed etc and the pf to follow the "programmed" settings especially if the (now overloaded!!) pnf is a slightly smug or overconfident low hours pay to fly cadet
who needs putting back in their boxThreads like this prove that the Airbus takes a looong time to really thoroughly understand despite all of our best efforts.
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Fredgrav
AP/FD OFF, A/THR ON: SPEED mode is active.
If, inadvertently, it is not in speed (because one pilot pushes the LS button instead of the FD, or does not push it at all when commanded), you can be in deep **** (in approach with the A/THR still in THR IDLE or during a TCAS RA "descend descend" and THR CLB still active, for instance).
This condition is very easy to go unnoticed, believe me. You can have a full FMA and the FPD and just ignore it, when workload is high.
always check and callout "speed" after selecting "FDs OFF". My advise
AP/FD OFF, A/THR ON: SPEED mode is active.
If, inadvertently, it is not in speed (because one pilot pushes the LS button instead of the FD, or does not push it at all when commanded), you can be in deep **** (in approach with the A/THR still in THR IDLE or during a TCAS RA "descend descend" and THR CLB still active, for instance).
This condition is very easy to go unnoticed, believe me. You can have a full FMA and the FPD and just ignore it, when workload is high.
always check and callout "speed" after selecting "FDs OFF". My advise
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To FLXPWR
It seems to be lots of confusion about FLARE MODE...and that's normal because the manufacturer gave the same name to two different functions in this flight phase:
1/ FLARE MODE related to flight controls NORMAL LAW (pitch control)
That's the one you describe in your initial post. This mode is available with FDs ON and OFF.
2/ FLARE MODE related to Auto Flight System (AP/FD common modes) during AUTOLAND.
This mode will align, flare and retard (if A/THR ON) the bus automatically.
For obvious reason, this common mode is not available if AP/FDs are OFF (1.22.30 p52).
fredgrav: in normal situations, when FDs are ON, you follow them. If for any reason you don't want to follow them, you turn them OFF.
1/ FLARE MODE related to flight controls NORMAL LAW (pitch control)
That's the one you describe in your initial post. This mode is available with FDs ON and OFF.
2/ FLARE MODE related to Auto Flight System (AP/FD common modes) during AUTOLAND.
This mode will align, flare and retard (if A/THR ON) the bus automatically.
For obvious reason, this common mode is not available if AP/FDs are OFF (1.22.30 p52).
fredgrav: in normal situations, when FDs are ON, you follow them. If for any reason you don't want to follow them, you turn them OFF.
Last edited by shortfuel; 8th Apr 2010 at 16:22.
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Shortfuel,
your post inspires me a question, silly maybe but still a question, something I've never thought experimenting in a simulator :
During automatic landing, the A/THR will go in RETARD mode, commanding IDLE thrust during the flare. But what would happen at the end of the landing roll when the crew disconnects AP in order to exit the active runway and, if despite the ''RETARD'' callout, the crew forgot the thrust levers in the CLB detent ?
My presumption would be that the engines would go to climb thrust ... ?
your post inspires me a question, silly maybe but still a question, something I've never thought experimenting in a simulator :
During automatic landing, the A/THR will go in RETARD mode, commanding IDLE thrust during the flare. But what would happen at the end of the landing roll when the crew disconnects AP in order to exit the active runway and, if despite the ''RETARD'' callout, the crew forgot the thrust levers in the CLB detent ?
My presumption would be that the engines would go to climb thrust ... ?
Pensador - how often do I fly with FDs on in manual flight? Quite often. Our SOPs don't allow for flight with FDs off except in the circumstances mentioned and then the FPV is always used. But we always follow the FDs with the PM setting the ACP as directed by the PF. Why? It's because the SOPs are designed with commonality accross the company in mind and the Boeing side has a big influence.
It's not the Airbus way and not somthing I necessarily agree with. We used to be pure Airbus but since being absorbed into a bigger company which took us over we are using their SOPs. However, they do encourage manual flight when the conditions allow and I take the opportunity to do that when I can - and nearly always with manual thrust. They do also not provide for a situation where the FDs could be ignored - and there should be very few. Chris Scott has very aptly highlighted the danger of asking the aircraft to tell you what to do and then ignoring what it is saying.
It's not the Airbus way and not somthing I necessarily agree with. We used to be pure Airbus but since being absorbed into a bigger company which took us over we are using their SOPs. However, they do encourage manual flight when the conditions allow and I take the opportunity to do that when I can - and nearly always with manual thrust. They do also not provide for a situation where the FDs could be ignored - and there should be very few. Chris Scott has very aptly highlighted the danger of asking the aircraft to tell you what to do and then ignoring what it is saying.
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Thanx MicroBurst, a very helpful example !
_______________________________
Hi shortfuel,
that's what I said, though I was referring to a situation where FD is indavertently left ON ... by the way, fully agree with you !
Airbus calls this RETARD MODE just not to confuse it with FLARE mode in conjuction with a FLT/CTL law ...
__________________________________
Hi CONF Iture,
how would you deploy THR RVRS and GND SPLRS with a thrust lever left in CLB detent ???!
fredgrav
_______________________________
fredgrav: in normal situations, when FDs are ON, you follow them. If for any reason you don't want to follow them, you turn them OFF.
that's what I said, though I was referring to a situation where FD is indavertently left ON ... by the way, fully agree with you !
2/ FLARE MODE related to Auto Flight System (AP/FD common modes) during AUTOLAND.
__________________________________
During automatic landing, the A/THR will go in RETARD mode, commanding IDLE thrust during the flare. But what would happen at the end of the landing roll when the crew disconnects AP in order to exit the active runway and, if despite the ''RETARD'' callout, the crew forgot the thrust levers in the CLB detent ?
how would you deploy THR RVRS and GND SPLRS with a thrust lever left in CLB detent ???!
fredgrav
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Hi, charlies angel! I didnt confuse. whenever someone is going to drill his handling skill he disengage the AP an FDs as well. What is exactly I mentioned about
con respecto!
con respecto!
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After 4,000 hours on the bus, I still learn things and change my habits. I have learnt that managed is often a bad way of flying this airplane.
If you know the 320 AFS, you can fly it better, more efficiently and more confortably for the pax if you use selected modes rather than managed ones. And it greatly improves your situational awareness.
I will always defend the practice of hand flying skills, but I also think that the most important ATA chapter in eny airplane's FCOM is Autoflight.
We are too used to automation. Try to do a NO FD TAKE OFF. The first time I didn't "like" to see the FMA totally blank. I hesitated for a second as there was not any call out after take off thurst selection. So after a few seconds wondering what should I check I remembered to at least check that the thrust effectively was on FLEX (there is not even a MAN FLEX white FMA, since A/THR does not arm). After that I always say "FMA BLANK". You can even find "challenging" a low altitude level off (when the ATC has cleared you to 3000 thousand and instead of clearing you higher as usually they say "maintain"). It should be not, right?
That is why I highly recommend to practice such take offs every once in a while when circumstances are ok. I also highly recommend not to forget selecting V2 and once airborne not to push again the A/THR (the automation element that most pilots wish to recover in the first place, in my experience) before selecting a higher speed!
If you know the 320 AFS, you can fly it better, more efficiently and more confortably for the pax if you use selected modes rather than managed ones. And it greatly improves your situational awareness.
I will always defend the practice of hand flying skills, but I also think that the most important ATA chapter in eny airplane's FCOM is Autoflight.
We are too used to automation. Try to do a NO FD TAKE OFF. The first time I didn't "like" to see the FMA totally blank. I hesitated for a second as there was not any call out after take off thurst selection. So after a few seconds wondering what should I check I remembered to at least check that the thrust effectively was on FLEX (there is not even a MAN FLEX white FMA, since A/THR does not arm). After that I always say "FMA BLANK". You can even find "challenging" a low altitude level off (when the ATC has cleared you to 3000 thousand and instead of clearing you higher as usually they say "maintain"). It should be not, right?
That is why I highly recommend to practice such take offs every once in a while when circumstances are ok. I also highly recommend not to forget selecting V2 and once airborne not to push again the A/THR (the automation element that most pilots wish to recover in the first place, in my experience) before selecting a higher speed!
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fredgrav,
-I don't know exactly what's your background on this A/C but let's try not to spread inaccurate info or try to make yourself clear:
FLARE MODE (AP/FD) is one thing and RETARD MODE another (A/THR).
-[content deleted]
Salut CONFiture,
Your presumption is correct
Have a look to this related thread:
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/40292...-autoland.html
MicroB,
I cannot agree more
. There is nothing like flying raw data from 10,000' on a perfect continuous descent approach without levelling-off...
[indeed rudderrudderrat...
]
-I don't know exactly what's your background on this A/C but let's try not to spread inaccurate info or try to make yourself clear:
FLARE MODE (AP/FD) is one thing and RETARD MODE another (A/THR).
-[content deleted]
Salut CONFiture,
Your presumption is correct
Have a look to this related thread:
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/40292...-autoland.html
MicroB,
I cannot agree more
. There is nothing like flying raw data from 10,000' on a perfect continuous descent approach without levelling-off...[indeed rudderrudderrat...
]
Last edited by shortfuel; 8th Apr 2010 at 21:28.
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Hi shortfuel,
Just to clarify - I presume you mean "Ground Spoilers" will deploy ... etc
During Autoland and on certain A/C (depends on MSN and type), speedbrakes will deploy shortly after MLG touchdown whatever the TL position.
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Hi shortfuel,
I'm neither trying to spread inaccurate info or just to make myself clear ...
My background is related to a 4 years study on the aircraft even though didn't fly the bus yet, cause I'm just about to end my ATPL training. Every time I write on this forum is either cause I'm quite sure about what I say (ie. reference to FCOM) or just cause wanna learn from what others say. I got wrong about the FLARE/RETARD mode, but everyone makes mistakes, and above all, is important to learn from them.
Could you please quote a reference to the FCOM (or an official document) ?
Thanks in advance,
fredgrav
I'm neither trying to spread inaccurate info or just to make myself clear ...
My background is related to a 4 years study on the aircraft even though didn't fly the bus yet, cause I'm just about to end my ATPL training. Every time I write on this forum is either cause I'm quite sure about what I say (ie. reference to FCOM) or just cause wanna learn from what others say. I got wrong about the FLARE/RETARD mode, but everyone makes mistakes, and above all, is important to learn from them.
During Autoland and on certain A/C (depends on MSN and type), speedbrakes will deploy shortly after MLG touchdown whatever the TL position
Thanks in advance,
fredgrav
Last edited by fredgrav; 8th Apr 2010 at 21:07.
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Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum
fredgrav, I was just about to give you the ref. (FCOM 1.27.10 p12 in "note" for A320/321 only) when I realised that I wrote a wrong statement myself 
!
Allow me to correct it: in autoland, gnd spoilers will extend only if you move back the TL to Idle like in any other landing!
The note I am referring to is actually only detailing the extension moment and rate of the spoilers, nothing else:
This statement "one second after both MLG touch down" misled me.
It is only one condition for spoilers extension, not the only condition as I wrongly said previously.
I found out with this:
We drifted big time from the subject though...
Cheers
!Allow me to correct it: in autoland, gnd spoilers will extend only if you move back the TL to Idle like in any other landing!
The note I am referring to is actually only detailing the extension moment and rate of the spoilers, nothing else:
This statement "one second after both MLG touch down" misled me.
It is only one condition for spoilers extension, not the only condition as I wrongly said previously.
I found out with this:
We drifted big time from the subject though...
Cheers
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Don't worry shortfuel, as said before, everybody makes mistakes ! 
In the Safety Magazine that Airbus mailed to me last month (February 2010) there's a big item on the topic, titled "A320 Family/ Evolution of ground spoiler logic". I've just posted it and can be now downloaded by the following link:
RapidShare: 1-CLICK Web hosting - Easy Filehosting
To summarize the whole item:
Runway excursion and hard landing events have prompted Airbus to develop a new standard of Spoiler Elevator Computer, the SEC 120. Expansion of the ground spoiler extension conditions means that the spoilers will extend even when the speed brake and/or thrust levers are in inappropriate positions, thereby improving the aircraft’s deceleration on ground. In addition, a new ground spoiler partial extension logic has been developed to limit bounces that may lead to hard landings.
In the Safety Magazine that Airbus mailed to me last month (February 2010) there's a big item on the topic, titled "A320 Family/ Evolution of ground spoiler logic". I've just posted it and can be now downloaded by the following link:
RapidShare: 1-CLICK Web hosting - Easy Filehosting
To summarize the whole item:
Runway excursion and hard landing events have prompted Airbus to develop a new standard of Spoiler Elevator Computer, the SEC 120. Expansion of the ground spoiler extension conditions means that the spoilers will extend even when the speed brake and/or thrust levers are in inappropriate positions, thereby improving the aircraft’s deceleration on ground. In addition, a new ground spoiler partial extension logic has been developed to limit bounces that may lead to hard landings.
To summarize, the SEC standard 120 provides means to reduce:
- Runway excursions by enabling:
• Arming of the ground spoilers even when the speed brake lever is not retracted.
• Extension of the ground spoilers even with a thrust lever above the Idle position.
- Hard landings by minimizing:
• The number and amplitude of bounces by triggering partial spoiler extension at touchdown even with both thrust levers in the ATHR position.
Note: In autoland, the ground spoilers fully extend at half speed one second after both main landing gear touch down.
I noticed that some FCOM's include the note and some do not: at that point, I'm left to think that, as you previously said, the A/LND GND SPLRS logic may change on some MSN's ...
Cheers,
fredgrav
Last edited by fredgrav; 9th Apr 2010 at 08:08.
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Hi, Microburst2002! I am fully with you!!!! Any chance for practice I just use it for handling. As for me it will expand pilot's attention.
Last edited by pensador; 9th Apr 2010 at 13:33.
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Fredgrav,
Excuse my curiosity, you say you have not flown the Airbus yet, but have been studying it for the last 4 years. You personally receive an interesting magazine that is only forwarded to professional addresses and is usually restricted to flight and ground crew members. What kind of formation are you following, and when do you expect to be the RHS of a 320 ?
Do you have already access to a flight simulator or a kind of 2D trainer ?
Anyway, it all looks promising and you demonstrate a real positive attitude.
Good luck in your training.
Excuse my curiosity, you say you have not flown the Airbus yet, but have been studying it for the last 4 years. You personally receive an interesting magazine that is only forwarded to professional addresses and is usually restricted to flight and ground crew members. What kind of formation are you following, and when do you expect to be the RHS of a 320 ?
Do you have already access to a flight simulator or a kind of 2D trainer ?
Anyway, it all looks promising and you demonstrate a real positive attitude.
Good luck in your training.
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Hi CONF Iture,
first of all thanx a million for your really kind wishes !
I do love both planes and computers, and I think Airbus groups them all together ... so 4 years ago I started studying the bus because of my "terrific" love for it ! I do have loads of useful stuff for studying like FCOM's, AOM's, AOPM's, FCTM's, CBT's, Briefing Notes, Diagrams, Trainers, Guides, Safety Magazines, Questionnaires etc., either printed or electronic. I'm supposed to take my final (Frozen) ATPL's exam within the next 1/2 months. PPRuNe is both a great place where to learn and confront with others. My final thought is that this "early study" on the aircraft, may/will help me right away or in a very near future ...
Best,
fredgrav
p.s. in order to receive a free copy of Airbus Safety Magazine, you can either contact Airbus by phone or mail, so that they can register you in their digital distribution list.
first of all thanx a million for your really kind wishes !
I do love both planes and computers, and I think Airbus groups them all together ... so 4 years ago I started studying the bus because of my "terrific" love for it ! I do have loads of useful stuff for studying like FCOM's, AOM's, AOPM's, FCTM's, CBT's, Briefing Notes, Diagrams, Trainers, Guides, Safety Magazines, Questionnaires etc., either printed or electronic. I'm supposed to take my final (Frozen) ATPL's exam within the next 1/2 months. PPRuNe is both a great place where to learn and confront with others. My final thought is that this "early study" on the aircraft, may/will help me right away or in a very near future ...
Best,
fredgrav
p.s. in order to receive a free copy of Airbus Safety Magazine, you can either contact Airbus by phone or mail, so that they can register you in their digital distribution list.
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Hello sir
i am A320 first officer with 700hrs
please tell me the best way to get kiss landing with A320 AND 319 i want to know the key for me some times i made good landing kiss one and some times no so how can i sure that my landing will be kiss
thank you
you can email me ([email protected])
i am A320 first officer with 700hrs
please tell me the best way to get kiss landing with A320 AND 319 i want to know the key for me some times i made good landing kiss one and some times no so how can i sure that my landing will be kiss
thank you
you can email me ([email protected])
