Circling Minima
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gotta agree with ya 411 having done it myself don't see any problems there.
If my memory serves me right one is required to complete circle to land on a clean wing as well as per TERPS for the initial type. The circle to land becomes more intriguing matter when a prescribed track comes into a play like in LIRA.
If my memory serves me right one is required to complete circle to land on a clean wing as well as per TERPS for the initial type. The circle to land becomes more intriguing matter when a prescribed track comes into a play like in LIRA.
9.G
While we are stealing the thread, if an ILS missed approach point is the DH (A) on the course and on glide path, what would be the defined missed approach point on the ILS 27, circle to land 9, in your example? As I understand it, you would miss upon reaching MDA, on course, on glide path. I am just trying to explain the reasoning behind flying the LOC procedure to the circling MDA, rather than an ILS which does not have a MDA associated with it.
GF
Yes, I know the answer, use the MAP as defined in the LOC procedure, timing or DME, and descend on glide path to circling MDA, level off and wait for the MAP to accomplish the missed approach procedure. But, that is a rather made-up procedure, IMHO. All that is gained is a rather ineffective path to the MDA.
411A
Giving deference to the superior skills at your operation, do they have to circle OEI or with partial flap and TERPS?
While we are stealing the thread, if an ILS missed approach point is the DH (A) on the course and on glide path, what would be the defined missed approach point on the ILS 27, circle to land 9, in your example? As I understand it, you would miss upon reaching MDA, on course, on glide path. I am just trying to explain the reasoning behind flying the LOC procedure to the circling MDA, rather than an ILS which does not have a MDA associated with it.
GF
Yes, I know the answer, use the MAP as defined in the LOC procedure, timing or DME, and descend on glide path to circling MDA, level off and wait for the MAP to accomplish the missed approach procedure. But, that is a rather made-up procedure, IMHO. All that is gained is a rather ineffective path to the MDA.
411A
Giving deference to the superior skills at your operation, do they have to circle OEI or with partial flap and TERPS?
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galaxy flyer, the MAP is as per design of the IAP (you just gotta find it on the approach plate) however you if don't deem to have acquired required visual reference at the MDA for circle to land regardless of the IAP flown, you ought to go around. Hope that helps.
9.G
The MAP on an ILS is the DH(A), it is defined as a point in space where the DH and the 'on course,on glide path' intersect. If you fly the GS to a MDA, there will be not defined point at which to execute the missed approach procedure--you would have to make one up by combining the LOC procedure with the ILS procedure. Yes, I agree, if you cannot see the runway/airport environment, one would have to go missed, but where abouts?
GF
The MAP on an ILS is the DH(A), it is defined as a point in space where the DH and the 'on course,on glide path' intersect. If you fly the GS to a MDA, there will be not defined point at which to execute the missed approach procedure--you would have to make one up by combining the LOC procedure with the ILS procedure. Yes, I agree, if you cannot see the runway/airport environment, one would have to go missed, but where abouts?
GF
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GF
I must be missing something in you question? You should fly the MAP for the approach you have just used to get to the Missed Approach Point. Doesn't matter if your planning to circle when you get there or not. It's all over if you cannot see the runway environment to circle. Simply exceute the MAP for the ILS, LOC, or VOR, NDB or?
I must be missing something in you question? You should fly the MAP for the approach you have just used to get to the Missed Approach Point. Doesn't matter if your planning to circle when you get there or not. It's all over if you cannot see the runway environment to circle. Simply exceute the MAP for the ILS, LOC, or VOR, NDB or?
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galaxy flyer, m looking at the very chart of the GSTC for VOR ILS/DME RWY 08 and the MA point for this approach is defined as MM. Thus you fly the VOR ILS/DME to the minima of 1350 for circling and if you go around your MAP is MM in this case. The way I see it, you hit the minimum and proceed to MM and follow the published MA. The best way is always to have a peep at the chart.
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Slightly off topic but it is interesting to note the stark contrast between PANS OPS circling areas and TERPS. For cat C, they are 4.2nm and 1.7nm (from that article) respectively.
If my memory serves me right one is required to complete circle to land on a clean wing as well as per TERPS for the initial type.
And I certainly did all my initial types circling in the appropriate configuration.
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BizJetJock, yeah that's about it around 200 Kts. Maybe it was a visual can't really remember but for sure I did land clean wing. It's been a while though. We're talking bout FAA type, don't we?
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Hey 411,
Just where do you train regarding circling approaches? Not to many if any L1011 level C sims out there with an FAA approved circling approach. I assume you are Part 125. I will say that you can train just about anyone to do a cirling approach if it's done time after time in the sim but out on the line it can be a very different story IMO.
Just where do you train regarding circling approaches? Not to many if any L1011 level C sims out there with an FAA approved circling approach. I assume you are Part 125. I will say that you can train just about anyone to do a cirling approach if it's done time after time in the sim but out on the line it can be a very different story IMO.
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A couple of things to ponder … first, there isn’t anything, at least in the US, called a “circling approach” … there is only the “circle to land” maneuver. Of course, there are several “instrument approaches” for which you can receive clearance to fly, and then, tagged on the end of the “cleared for VOR approach…” clearance (for example), you can get “…circle to land runway XX.” The actual circling “maneuver” is a visually referenced maneuver to get you from the end of the instrument approach to a different runway on which you are to land. If you do not have the airport in sight, including the runway to which you are to circle to land, when get to the point that you need to break off for the circle, you are obligated to execute a missed approach. If you have the appropriate visual references, you can break off from the instrument approach and maneuver (not below the circling minima, however) to align with the other runway. You must be able to keep the runway of intended landing in continuous sight throughout the maneuver (unless you’re flying a high wing airplane and the airplane geometry is the only reason for not being able to “continuously” see the landing runway), because if you do lose sight of that runway, for any reason besides the one I’ve mentioned here you are obligated to execute a missed approach. Now … in that case, you are expected to continue to turn in the direction of the runway to which you were circling to land until you can intercept the missed approach for the instrument approach you originally flew – and fly that missed approach procedure.
Next, at least in the US, I think you’ll find that the regulator doesn’t qualify any simulator for the “circle to land” maneuver unless all of what I’ve described above can be accomplished with the simulator set to maximum gross weight for landing of the simulated airplane, the weather set to the minimums for the approach, and the landing runway must be at least 90 degrees from the approach course for the instrument approach to be flown. That means the visual system capability in the simulator has to be good enough for the pilot to be able to perform the tasks described. There is no corner cutting in getting the simulator qualified … now, how the simulator is actually used may be an entirely different circumstance – but, if that is true, it’s not because of a limitation of the simulator. The regulator cannot afford someone learning a procedure in a simulator, that, if conducted in the real world, would lead to an accident or incident.
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Giving deference to the superior skills at your operation, do they have to circle OEI or with partial flap and TERPS?
It can be done, just follow the plot.
Just where do you train regarding circling approaches?
Gosh, what a surprise.
We spend the bucks, crews trained...profits flow in.
Yes, I know...old fashioned, but it works.
Last edited by 411A; 7th Oct 2009 at 01:37.
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9.g Yep, talking FAA. I've put below the relevant section of the Practical Test Standard, which clearly says "appropriate configuration".
I'm not sure what purpose is served by doing circuits at 200 knots, other than being a fun way of getting used to the handling of the type and learning how hard it is to slow down to landing configuration!
Air Rabbit, you'll notice the title of the manoevre is "Landing from a circling approach".
D. TASK: LANDING FROM A CIRCLING APPROACH
REFERENCES: FAR Part 61; AC 61-27; Pilot's Operating Handbook, AFM, AIM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits adequate knowledge of a landing from a circling approach.
2. Selects, and complies with, a circling approach procedure to a specified runway.
3. Considers the environmental, operational, and meteorological factors which affect a landing from a circling approach.
4. Confirms the direction of traffic and adheres to all restrictions and instructions issued by ATC.
5. Descends at a rate that ensures arrival at the MDA at, or prior to, a point from which a normal circle-to-land maneuver can be accomplished.
6. Avoids descent below the appropriate circling MDA or exceeding the visibility criteria until in a position from which a descent to a normal landing can be made.
7. Accomplishes the appropriate checklist items.
8. Maneuvers the airplane, after reaching the authorized circling approach altitude, by visual references, to maintain a flightpath that permits a normal landing on a runway at least 90° from the final approach course.
9. Performs the maneuver without excessive maneuvering and without exceeding the normal operating limits of the airplane. The angle of bank should not exceed 30°.
10. Maintains the desired altitude within +100, –0 feet (+30, –0 meters), heading within ±5°, and approach airspeed/V-speed within ±5.
11. Uses the appropriate airplane configuration for normal and abnormal situations and procedures.
12. Performs all procedures required for the circling approach and airplane control in a timely, smooth, and positive manner.
13. Accomplishes a smooth, positively controlled transition to final approach and touchdown.
14. Maintains positive directional control and crosswind correction during the after-landing roll.
15. Uses spoilers, prop reverse, thrust reverse, wheel brakes, and other drag/braking devices, as appropriate, in such a manner to bring the airplane to a safe stop.
16. Completes the after-landing checklist items, after clearing the runway, in a timely manner and as recommended by the manufacturer.
I'm not sure what purpose is served by doing circuits at 200 knots, other than being a fun way of getting used to the handling of the type and learning how hard it is to slow down to landing configuration!
Air Rabbit, you'll notice the title of the manoevre is "Landing from a circling approach".
D. TASK: LANDING FROM A CIRCLING APPROACH
REFERENCES: FAR Part 61; AC 61-27; Pilot's Operating Handbook, AFM, AIM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits adequate knowledge of a landing from a circling approach.
2. Selects, and complies with, a circling approach procedure to a specified runway.
3. Considers the environmental, operational, and meteorological factors which affect a landing from a circling approach.
4. Confirms the direction of traffic and adheres to all restrictions and instructions issued by ATC.
5. Descends at a rate that ensures arrival at the MDA at, or prior to, a point from which a normal circle-to-land maneuver can be accomplished.
6. Avoids descent below the appropriate circling MDA or exceeding the visibility criteria until in a position from which a descent to a normal landing can be made.
7. Accomplishes the appropriate checklist items.
8. Maneuvers the airplane, after reaching the authorized circling approach altitude, by visual references, to maintain a flightpath that permits a normal landing on a runway at least 90° from the final approach course.
9. Performs the maneuver without excessive maneuvering and without exceeding the normal operating limits of the airplane. The angle of bank should not exceed 30°.
10. Maintains the desired altitude within +100, –0 feet (+30, –0 meters), heading within ±5°, and approach airspeed/V-speed within ±5.
11. Uses the appropriate airplane configuration for normal and abnormal situations and procedures.
12. Performs all procedures required for the circling approach and airplane control in a timely, smooth, and positive manner.
13. Accomplishes a smooth, positively controlled transition to final approach and touchdown.
14. Maintains positive directional control and crosswind correction during the after-landing roll.
15. Uses spoilers, prop reverse, thrust reverse, wheel brakes, and other drag/braking devices, as appropriate, in such a manner to bring the airplane to a safe stop.
16. Completes the after-landing checklist items, after clearing the runway, in a timely manner and as recommended by the manufacturer.
Last edited by BizJetJock; 7th Oct 2009 at 09:42. Reason: correcting poor typing!
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What a load of thread creep! The answer is simple, circling minima is determined under PAN OPS for the specific runway and approach and provides protection both vertical and lateral. The VOR may be offset for instance, this could determine a different minima based on the approach track. No additives to circling minima and you have to keep the "aerodrome environment" in sight, and circle within the prescribed radius. As correctly stated, the missed approach from a circle to land is based on the instrument approach carried out. Individual aircraft configs are left up to SOPs
PPRuNeaholic
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This is somewhat interesting and some of the comments are truly frightening. From the perspective of a Pans Ops procedure designer, here's the basic criteria (very basic!) for an aerodrome at 1,000 feet AMSL.
Cat A IAS 100 Circling Radius 1.68 NM
Cat B IAS 135 Circling Radius 2.66 NM
Cat C IAS 180 Circling Radius 4.20 NM
Cat D IAS 205 Circling Radius 5.28 NM
Cat E IAS 240 Circling Radius 6.94 NM
Little wonder that the FAA is jittery about circling in a jet within 1.7 NM! I'm given to understand that the FAA has admitted the problems associated with their TERPs circling criteria but, after all these years, despite prangs off circling approaches, they're reluctant to change! So all they do is discourage circling... interesting.
As to the difference that was initially discussed between circling MDA for a ILS/DME and a VOR/DME approach, I can't imagine it unless the VOR is offset toward terrain AND the MAPt for the VOR/DME procedure is in a position that is far removed from the final approach course for the ILS/DME. Without seeing the procedure and the way it was designed - including whether Pans Ops or TERPs - it's not possible for me to comment further.
For those who are heroic enough to be able to circle at 200 knots, or thereabouts, within 1.7 NM, I say more power to your elbow! For my own part, I would much prefer the greater safety afforded by Pans Ops procedures.
As to the way to go missed approach off a circling manoeuvre - no matter what nomenclature is applied to it under the FAA system - I don't see a major problem in turning back over the runway at the outset. The only proviso I would add is that, if you've already descended below circling altitude, or you can't turn pretty sharply, you better be able to pray to some sort of God.
And, of course, all bets are off if you lose sight of the runway during the turn toward it. Still, it's better than nothing.
Cat A IAS 100 Circling Radius 1.68 NM
Cat B IAS 135 Circling Radius 2.66 NM
Cat C IAS 180 Circling Radius 4.20 NM
Cat D IAS 205 Circling Radius 5.28 NM
Cat E IAS 240 Circling Radius 6.94 NM
Little wonder that the FAA is jittery about circling in a jet within 1.7 NM! I'm given to understand that the FAA has admitted the problems associated with their TERPs circling criteria but, after all these years, despite prangs off circling approaches, they're reluctant to change! So all they do is discourage circling... interesting.
As to the difference that was initially discussed between circling MDA for a ILS/DME and a VOR/DME approach, I can't imagine it unless the VOR is offset toward terrain AND the MAPt for the VOR/DME procedure is in a position that is far removed from the final approach course for the ILS/DME. Without seeing the procedure and the way it was designed - including whether Pans Ops or TERPs - it's not possible for me to comment further.
For those who are heroic enough to be able to circle at 200 knots, or thereabouts, within 1.7 NM, I say more power to your elbow! For my own part, I would much prefer the greater safety afforded by Pans Ops procedures.
As to the way to go missed approach off a circling manoeuvre - no matter what nomenclature is applied to it under the FAA system - I don't see a major problem in turning back over the runway at the outset. The only proviso I would add is that, if you've already descended below circling altitude, or you can't turn pretty sharply, you better be able to pray to some sort of God.
And, of course, all bets are off if you lose sight of the runway during the turn toward it. Still, it's better than nothing.
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For those who are heroic enough to be able to circle at 200 knots, or thereabouts, within 1.7 NM, I say more power to your elbow! For my own part, I would much prefer the greater safety afforded by Pans Ops procedures.
How is it done?
9G and 411A,
Could you describe that actual technique you TERPS guys use to do a circling approach? For example, when do you roll out on final ie distance from threshold and altitude, what is your downwind spacing and at what point/time do you commence the base turn and bank angle during the turn?
It seems to me that a TERPS Cat C or Cat D cannot remain in the circling area and get stabilised by even 400ft AGL without exceeding 30° AOB around the base turn, but I'm always learning.
On the other hand, PANS OPS' 4.2nm circling area is quite comfortable to stay "in". Maintaining the threshold environment in sight with 4km vis is another matter...
Back to the thread topic, for the 717:
Auto leveloff at the MDA on the ILS. Nice.
Could you describe that actual technique you TERPS guys use to do a circling approach? For example, when do you roll out on final ie distance from threshold and altitude, what is your downwind spacing and at what point/time do you commence the base turn and bank angle during the turn?
It seems to me that a TERPS Cat C or Cat D cannot remain in the circling area and get stabilised by even 400ft AGL without exceeding 30° AOB around the base turn, but I'm always learning.
On the other hand, PANS OPS' 4.2nm circling area is quite comfortable to stay "in". Maintaining the threshold environment in sight with 4km vis is another matter...
Back to the thread topic, for the 717:
When flying an ILS approach and circling to land, set both BARO minimums to the CIRCLE-TO-LAND MDA. After established on the ILS localizer and prior to AUTOLAND/DUAL/SINGLE LAND annunciation, preselect the FCP altitude to the same MDA value. After glidepath capture, the airplane will descend to the MDA and the FMA will read APPR ONLY. At the MDA, the FMA and flight guidance will change to HEADING HOLD and ALTITUDE HOLD. Maneuvering can then be accomplished with heading or track mode.
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It seems to me that a TERPS Cat C or Cat D cannot remain in the circling area and get stabilised by even 400ft AGL without exceeding 30° AOB around the base turn, but I'm always learning
The lowest circling minima (under TERPs) is 600 feet for a category D airplane, so...at 160 knots, it is quite manageable.
Note: for the FAA type rating, circling as I have described is required, otherwise a VFR circling limitation is placed on the license.
...when do you roll out on final ie distance from threshold and altitude...
Is this a demanding maneuver?
Yes, it certainly can be, especially with significant crosswinds, so...I expect many airlines have simply eliminated the circling maneuver, for their own ops.
IE: different strokes for different folks.
600 feet, no more than two miles, select landing flaps at this point, and...land.
