AF447
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 94
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From: Irvine, CA
ZFW mistake
Thank you.
Does the A330 have the option to weigh itself and does Air France have this option?
If yes, which max. difference between calculated and measured would be acceptable for dispatch?
This max. weight difference would theoretically translate to how much difference in the max. altitude the airplane can fly?
Does the A330 have the option to weigh itself and does Air France have this option?
If yes, which max. difference between calculated and measured would be acceptable for dispatch?
This max. weight difference would theoretically translate to how much difference in the max. altitude the airplane can fly?
Last edited by Interflug; 7th June 2009 at 10:50.
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: EGKK
How probable would it be that the A330 had a "minor" techical fault, spotted on the ground in GIG, before the aircraft left for CDG, but after pressure put by AF ops on the captain, insisted he returned to CDG to have it sorted there? And then, a lightening strike or adverse weather conditions made the problem worse...?
Does AF have engineers at Rio or would they have had to fly someone out, thus delaying the arrival of the Aircraft in Paris, which most probably was going to fly somewhere else after?
Is AirFrance Ops worrying now that this could leak out and are wondering who to point the finger at?
Does AF have engineers at Rio or would they have had to fly someone out, thus delaying the arrival of the Aircraft in Paris, which most probably was going to fly somewhere else after?
Is AirFrance Ops worrying now that this could leak out and are wondering who to point the finger at?
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 17
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From: England
Weather Avoidance (767-757 Pilot)
1. Have the radar turned on- sounds wierd but I`ve seen a few folk fly along with terrain on instead of weather.
2. Deviate early enough(90% of the time the CBs are above you in the tropics especially)then you don`t tend to increase the track miles by much and ergo you don`t burn too much extra fuel either....So fuel shouldn`t be an issue. If you take the gamble to `look` at the storm first by flying up to it you will have more track miles to cover to deviate around it...
3. Often the return on the weather radar will `disappear` the nearer you get to the CB..Are you above it, or not? Or is your weather radar not picking up the ice near the top of the cell. You have to play with the tilt...On really dark, moonless nights I remember the distance from the cell to the next waypoint and if I deviate I know not to turn back until I`m well inside that distance incase the return does the `disappearing act`.
Questions; That last acars msg....cabin vertical speed...Does it mean the cabin is going to `over take` the outside ie airplane in a dive or does it mean decompression??
...Interesting that "male bodies" have been found....Could they have fallen out of a breakking up aeroplane or does it mean that the impact was less severe??
Some great discussion on here keep it up folks!!
2. Deviate early enough(90% of the time the CBs are above you in the tropics especially)then you don`t tend to increase the track miles by much and ergo you don`t burn too much extra fuel either....So fuel shouldn`t be an issue. If you take the gamble to `look` at the storm first by flying up to it you will have more track miles to cover to deviate around it...
3. Often the return on the weather radar will `disappear` the nearer you get to the CB..Are you above it, or not? Or is your weather radar not picking up the ice near the top of the cell. You have to play with the tilt...On really dark, moonless nights I remember the distance from the cell to the next waypoint and if I deviate I know not to turn back until I`m well inside that distance incase the return does the `disappearing act`.
Questions; That last acars msg....cabin vertical speed...Does it mean the cabin is going to `over take` the outside ie airplane in a dive or does it mean decompression??
...Interesting that "male bodies" have been found....Could they have fallen out of a breakking up aeroplane or does it mean that the impact was less severe??
Some great discussion on here keep it up folks!!
Last edited by dougydog; 7th June 2009 at 12:31.
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 60
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From: melb
Since the crew primary task then, is to try to regain control before anything else gets done, it is not surprising that distress calls were never made.
If situations can arise then, where using the radio to call a mayday is not possible due to the work load in the cabin, then its time voice activated radio was introduced, if not one simple button to send a distress message.
To not be able to transmit in an emergency situation is a serious flaw that needs to be corrected.
If situations can arise then, where using the radio to call a mayday is not possible due to the work load in the cabin, then its time voice activated radio was introduced, if not one simple button to send a distress message.
To not be able to transmit in an emergency situation is a serious flaw that needs to be corrected.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 29
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From: Dubai
@slamer.
As mentioned in my previous post. THE AOA's bother me in the fact that the Perpignan A320 SEEMED to have frozen with No Crew warning.
Icing of the aircraft in this thread would surely mean the AOA's subject to the same icing conditions & again IF they Froze with No crew warning that takes part of the Crew instrument assistance away.
As mentioned in my previous post. THE AOA's bother me in the fact that the Perpignan A320 SEEMED to have frozen with No Crew warning.
Icing of the aircraft in this thread would surely mean the AOA's subject to the same icing conditions & again IF they Froze with No crew warning that takes part of the Crew instrument assistance away.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,663
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From: Earth
.... if not one simple button to send a distress message.
To not be able to transmit in an emergency situation is a serious flaw that needs to be corrected.
To not be able to transmit in an emergency situation is a serious flaw that needs to be corrected.
Oh mickk.....
What is your aviation background ?
If a pilot of some sort, did none of your instructors teach you A . N . C . ?
In a complex aircraft such as a Boeing or Airbus, are already sufficient alarms and annunciators to deal with. I would like to think that all line pilots are perfectly capable of making a mayday call by the traditional means where cirumstances permit.
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 216
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From: United Kingdom
Communication
To not be able to transmit in an emergency situation is a serious flaw that needs to be corrected.
In a sudden and extreme situation it it is likely they would have been trying to disambiguate multiple readings, warnings and symptoms.
As it stands, we don't know whether they attempted any transmissions on HF.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 493
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From: All over the show like a madwomans crap
Some answers
As an Airbus A330/340 pilot, theres a few questions on here Id like to answer:
Interflug, when any airplane is built, the weight is calculated by the design engineers as weight is one of the biggest enemys, if you like, of aircraft, in that, the heavier they are, the more fuel they burn etc etc. When the aircraft is built, they are weighed, and in the aircraft we have a revenue and a training weight index. Revenue includes everything, crew, catering, the works. Baggage and cargo are loaded and we then have our ZFW, which is sent to us by dispatch, and which we double check on our loadsheet. We also know how much fuel is on board, in our airline, we are given the fuel in Litres, multiply this by the Specific Gravity to calculate the weight in KGs, we add that to our ZFW and that is the aircraft Gross Weight. You are correct in that this will decide our max alts. There is no discprepancy allowed with the weight.
ILS26L....highly unlikely, we fly to probably a hundred destinations, and we have engineers at every port. Usual practice is to contract out the home ports airline engineers that are rated on type, and train them up on your airlines procedures etc. I cant think of a "minor" fault that would lead to this.
dougydog, the 'Cabin Vert Speed" message on the ACARS was probably because the vertical speed was above 1800ft/min, which doesnt cause an ECAM msg, the value pulsates on the System Display...the ECAM warning pops up when the Cabin Alt is above 9550ft. The masks drop at approx 14000ft. Cabin Alt.
Interflug, when any airplane is built, the weight is calculated by the design engineers as weight is one of the biggest enemys, if you like, of aircraft, in that, the heavier they are, the more fuel they burn etc etc. When the aircraft is built, they are weighed, and in the aircraft we have a revenue and a training weight index. Revenue includes everything, crew, catering, the works. Baggage and cargo are loaded and we then have our ZFW, which is sent to us by dispatch, and which we double check on our loadsheet. We also know how much fuel is on board, in our airline, we are given the fuel in Litres, multiply this by the Specific Gravity to calculate the weight in KGs, we add that to our ZFW and that is the aircraft Gross Weight. You are correct in that this will decide our max alts. There is no discprepancy allowed with the weight.
ILS26L....highly unlikely, we fly to probably a hundred destinations, and we have engineers at every port. Usual practice is to contract out the home ports airline engineers that are rated on type, and train them up on your airlines procedures etc. I cant think of a "minor" fault that would lead to this.
dougydog, the 'Cabin Vert Speed" message on the ACARS was probably because the vertical speed was above 1800ft/min, which doesnt cause an ECAM msg, the value pulsates on the System Display...the ECAM warning pops up when the Cabin Alt is above 9550ft. The masks drop at approx 14000ft. Cabin Alt.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 557
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From: .
mickk, ask yourself what help would a mayday call really bring in this instance? None. What help would focussing all your efforts on the problem in hand give you? It might keep you alive!
If you are late downwind and burst into flames a quick call to ATC that you are turning finals immediately will bring immediate help. In the middle of the atlantic faced with an catastrophic situation what help will a radio call provide???
Its all about priorities.
If you are late downwind and burst into flames a quick call to ATC that you are turning finals immediately will bring immediate help. In the middle of the atlantic faced with an catastrophic situation what help will a radio call provide???
Its all about priorities.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 29
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From: Dubai
@Question_Answer
The WXR as fitted to modern aircraft should be sufficient.
However remember its purpose, weather avoidance NOT weather penetration.
I have seen a P3 Orion with a significantly better output power and resolution RTB with major hail damage as the Radar Picture was misinterprated.
The WXR as fitted to modern aircraft should be sufficient.
However remember its purpose, weather avoidance NOT weather penetration.
I have seen a P3 Orion with a significantly better output power and resolution RTB with major hail damage as the Radar Picture was misinterprated.
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 475
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From: UK
spot on Captain Crunch and with so many messages related to one item its not coincidence.
If you received any messages at all from an aircraft that was in the process of breaking up they would most likely be completely random. These AF 447 messages are not random but they are also not conclusive evidence of what exactly happened.
I suspect over time though they will become extremely relevant.
If you received any messages at all from an aircraft that was in the process of breaking up they would most likely be completely random. These AF 447 messages are not random but they are also not conclusive evidence of what exactly happened.
I suspect over time though they will become extremely relevant.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 29
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From: Dubai
Working sytems required for ACARS Transmission
ACARS Management Unit
Satellite Data Unit
Beam Steering Unit
Antennae
Power supplies
Faulted Reporting System.
These Reports Can be generated in milliseconds The aircraft has not traveled very far in space between the warning & the data transmission
Do Not look at just what Has failed on these report look at what has Not,
ACARS Management Unit
Satellite Data Unit
Beam Steering Unit
Antennae
Power supplies
Faulted Reporting System.
These Reports Can be generated in milliseconds The aircraft has not traveled very far in space between the warning & the data transmission
Do Not look at just what Has failed on these report look at what has Not,
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 49
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From: Europe
And without those ACARS messages, where would the SAR, investigation, rumours and theories be? Even if it's not the main purpose of those maintenance messages, it's a definitive improvement in crash rescue and investigation for sure, especially without CVR and FDR, and even no plane at all.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
From: MI
TonyWilliams -
Unfortunately, you're absolutely right. And the fact that in most cases the pilot is not there to explain what went wrong, makes it even worse. It's left to investigators to "speculate", in many cases, what happened. There have also been "cover-ups" in accident investigations where the crew was unable to defend themselves as well.
We've come a long way, but still have a long way to go.
Quote:
Airbus takes control away from the pilots.
Yet pilots are still the number one cause of aircraft accidents.
To all things, a balancing act.
Airbus takes control away from the pilots.
Yet pilots are still the number one cause of aircraft accidents.
To all things, a balancing act.
We've come a long way, but still have a long way to go.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
From: Dartmouth, Devon U.K.
Quote:-
"Regarding pitot/static - surely a "safe" design for any modern aircraft is based on the knowledge and operation from many decades of aircraft design, so if this variant of aircraft has an inherent design flaw in this area it does surprise me."
Another Quote from Air France:-
"Without waiting for the in service evaluation, Air France decided to replace all its probes and the programme was launched on 27 April 2009."
Probably the second quote answers the first quote...There must have been inherent design flaws in the existing probes for Air France to launch into replacing them all...If not then you could say "If it ain't broke then don't fix it".
"Regarding pitot/static - surely a "safe" design for any modern aircraft is based on the knowledge and operation from many decades of aircraft design, so if this variant of aircraft has an inherent design flaw in this area it does surprise me."
Another Quote from Air France:-
"Without waiting for the in service evaluation, Air France decided to replace all its probes and the programme was launched on 27 April 2009."
Probably the second quote answers the first quote...There must have been inherent design flaws in the existing probes for Air France to launch into replacing them all...If not then you could say "If it ain't broke then don't fix it".
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 94
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From: Irvine, CA
ZFW mistake
by NoseGear
Interflug, when any airplane is built, the weight is calculated by the design engineers as weight is one of the biggest enemys, if you like, of aircraft, in that, the heavier they are, the more fuel they burn etc etc. ...There is no discrepancy allowed with the weight.
Interflug, when any airplane is built, the weight is calculated by the design engineers as weight is one of the biggest enemys, if you like, of aircraft, in that, the heavier they are, the more fuel they burn etc etc. ...There is no discrepancy allowed with the weight.
Could that theoretically be at least a contributing factor for being too high too early in the flight, without margins for sudden temperature changes or turbulences?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: Military (Retired)
Posts: 16,699
Likes: 54
From: Lincolnshire
barry, unless the possible position of the surface fires is within the debris drift area then it is a non-starter.