AF447
cp;
I wouldn't have said it as I don't know what all that means either! 
However, I question the testimony above which claims the airplane is "unflyable". Perhaps an airplane may not as easy to fly as in Normal Law in smooth air in daytime but describing an airliner as "unflyable" is a serious statement/accusation that can't be taken at face value. In certain hydraulic system failure cases the airplane is not as easy to fly but it is emminently "flyable" all the same. An aft CG is less desireable than one that is more forward but as you point out, the airplane is certified. I discussed the reasons why I didn't think an aft CG wasn't "in the running" as a primary cause and I think those comments require addressing by those who claim the airplane is "unflyable" or even seriously compromised before any other claims can be made. Nor do I think the "drug company certification" metaphor works - it's biological vs pretty basic, well-understood physics - not even in the same arena.
My understanding of the certification process (from reading, not experience), flying an airliner in all it's normal and degraded possibilities should not require greater than "average" skill. "Average" here does not mean "mediocre" - it means the high degree of handling skills that a line pilot would be expected to possess and be able to demonstrate in normal operations vice a pilot trained and experienced in certification and test flight work in which "normal" is a long way from familiar/routine line experience and the necessary, trained skills to maintain controlled flight at the extremes.
I think PJ2 may say however, that a 'happy airbus' will "go around again after a bounce' but the 'unhappy airbus' will just roll over and have a cigarette - not sure what that means,
However, I question the testimony above which claims the airplane is "unflyable". Perhaps an airplane may not as easy to fly as in Normal Law in smooth air in daytime but describing an airliner as "unflyable" is a serious statement/accusation that can't be taken at face value. In certain hydraulic system failure cases the airplane is not as easy to fly but it is emminently "flyable" all the same. An aft CG is less desireable than one that is more forward but as you point out, the airplane is certified. I discussed the reasons why I didn't think an aft CG wasn't "in the running" as a primary cause and I think those comments require addressing by those who claim the airplane is "unflyable" or even seriously compromised before any other claims can be made. Nor do I think the "drug company certification" metaphor works - it's biological vs pretty basic, well-understood physics - not even in the same arena.
My understanding of the certification process (from reading, not experience), flying an airliner in all it's normal and degraded possibilities should not require greater than "average" skill. "Average" here does not mean "mediocre" - it means the high degree of handling skills that a line pilot would be expected to possess and be able to demonstrate in normal operations vice a pilot trained and experienced in certification and test flight work in which "normal" is a long way from familiar/routine line experience and the necessary, trained skills to maintain controlled flight at the extremes.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by PJ2
but as you point out, the airplane is certified.
Perhaps we will never know, sadly.
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Surely it is just those conditions, and the 'relative flyability' that is being investigated and quantified by BEA and Airbus as we speak. It's certainly something that from the uncertainty evinced here, seems to require re-quantifying... especially for increasing levels of turbulence and decreasing levels of instrumentation.
Some of these pages contain discussion of the existence and capabilities of Airbus simulators extending the envelope beyond normal line-training purposes.
Some of these pages contain discussion of the existence and capabilities of Airbus simulators extending the envelope beyond normal line-training purposes.
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Read an interesting comment in Flight International yesterday in one of the letters, suggesting that a [panic] button be introduced along the lines of the airbus ditching button alluded to in the Hudson river incident, but with the effect of tranmitting an automated mayday message.
The idea being to reduce pilot workload if they find themselves in a true mayday situation. The idea being to automatically provide basic details, position, airspeed, flight number etc. from data entered into the flight computer prior to take off & in-flight updates to aid in any search should the worst happen.
Forgive me for my ignorance of the ACARS system [I don't get into the "front offices" very often], but wouldn't it be easier to make the automated reports sent on ACARS include position, speed, altitude & heading, or to have separate ACARS reports of this data, say every five minutes mandated when out of range of ATC radar / radio?
The idea being to reduce pilot workload if they find themselves in a true mayday situation. The idea being to automatically provide basic details, position, airspeed, flight number etc. from data entered into the flight computer prior to take off & in-flight updates to aid in any search should the worst happen.
Forgive me for my ignorance of the ACARS system [I don't get into the "front offices" very often], but wouldn't it be easier to make the automated reports sent on ACARS include position, speed, altitude & heading, or to have separate ACARS reports of this data, say every five minutes mandated when out of range of ATC radar / radio?
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Hi,
Certification 
One can ask:
In his commercial operation life the de Havilland Comet was certified or not ?
Think about.
but as you point out, the airplane is certified.
One can ask:
In his commercial operation life the de Havilland Comet was certified or not ?
Think about.
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Yes, it was certified of course; then withdrawn for a few months while very extensive investigation was made of every possible aspect that might have brought down G-ALYP out of Ciampino. Quite a few modifications were made, including electrical and fire safety before it was re-issued.
2 weeks later G-ALYY was lost and the certificate withdrawn indefinitely whilst the largest accident investigation of its kind took place.
It was this investigation that introduced cyclic water-tank testing to establish a safe fatigue life of a/c pressure-hulls.
The original CoA was based on extensive testing of samples and sub-sections of the fuselage.
I think it is a rather trite point you make....
2 weeks later G-ALYY was lost and the certificate withdrawn indefinitely whilst the largest accident investigation of its kind took place.
It was this investigation that introduced cyclic water-tank testing to establish a safe fatigue life of a/c pressure-hulls.
The original CoA was based on extensive testing of samples and sub-sections of the fuselage.
I think it is a rather trite point you make....
HM,
I think you may have overreacted a tad to jcj's post. I take his point to be this: certification is not a perfect process.
Especially with the speed of change in technologies, design and construction procedures, significant issues can and will arise before, and occasionally even after, certification.
I think you may have overreacted a tad to jcj's post. I take his point to be this: certification is not a perfect process.
Especially with the speed of change in technologies, design and construction procedures, significant issues can and will arise before, and occasionally even after, certification.
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OK, just a tad
The point surely, is whether the Cert requirements stipulate manual handling capability to be demonstrated in such a potentially degraded aircraft at night, in turbulence, up at cruise altitude and speed.
I imagine not!
The point surely, is whether the Cert requirements stipulate manual handling capability to be demonstrated in such a potentially degraded aircraft at night, in turbulence, up at cruise altitude and speed.
I imagine not!
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but if, as we suspect, they flew headlong into CB then they would be subjected to such massively differing conditions, huge updrafts, multiple lightening strikes, changes in wind direction, intensity,ice ingestion, potential for engine flame out etc. Its possible that NO aircraft would be flyable under those conditions -or even maintain structural integrity as it appears AF447 mostly did.
Tho 'handflyability' w/o machine assistance is something needed, wouldnt they be better off if they had REAL weather radar (one that did the active scanning up and down and around and with different intensity parameters..automatically), + training how to use it?
Tho 'handflyability' w/o machine assistance is something needed, wouldnt they be better off if they had REAL weather radar (one that did the active scanning up and down and around and with different intensity parameters..automatically), + training how to use it?
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wouldnt they be better off if they had REAL weather radar (one that did the active scanning up and down and around and with different intensity parameters..automatically), + training how to use it
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Hi,
Weather radar ? sure.
Anyway it was a possibilty to have a great help ..... from the weather satellite(s) ..
Air France dispatch sended (ACARS) at 00H31 (BEA report p 61)
BONJOUR AF447.METEO EN ROUTE SAILOR:PHOT SAT DE 0000Z:
CONVECTION ZCIT SALPU/TASIL .- PREVI CAT:NIL.-SLTS DISPATCH
This was a old satellite meteo report.
Nevertheless was available a other satellite imagery dated from two hours before the AF447 approach the bad zone.
This was not sended to AF447.
AF447 had only a TEMSI outdated of 24 hours.
What is the point to have old weather report for planning a flight?
Weather radar ? sure.
Anyway it was a possibilty to have a great help ..... from the weather satellite(s) ..
Air France dispatch sended (ACARS) at 00H31 (BEA report p 61)
BONJOUR AF447.METEO EN ROUTE SAILOR:PHOT SAT DE 0000Z:
CONVECTION ZCIT SALPU/TASIL .- PREVI CAT:NIL.-SLTS DISPATCH
This was a old satellite meteo report.
Nevertheless was available a other satellite imagery dated from two hours before the AF447 approach the bad zone.
This was not sended to AF447.
AF447 had only a TEMSI outdated of 24 hours.
What is the point to have old weather report for planning a flight?
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The use of such a report is very much like the use of the 4300+ posts here previously. Not much use if you don't pay attention.
Trust me here. Several hundred crossings of this exact route are speaking.
ANYONE that has flown this route KNOWS about the WX in the Intertropical Convergence Zone. The WX severity that particular night was actually WANING from the 5 to 7 day cycle it usually follows RELIGIOUSLY that time of year.
The Zone forecast for that region was exactly accurate. No one should have been surprised by the WX that night. This crew had traversed this route the other direction a day or so earlier; In WX that was almost at PEAK of cycle.
The other 9 flights that traversed that exact region (all with the same WX reports) within 4 hours all went thru without difficulty.
Somehow these facts keep escaping from collective consciousness every 10 pages or so.
Trust me here. Several hundred crossings of this exact route are speaking.
ANYONE that has flown this route KNOWS about the WX in the Intertropical Convergence Zone. The WX severity that particular night was actually WANING from the 5 to 7 day cycle it usually follows RELIGIOUSLY that time of year.
The Zone forecast for that region was exactly accurate. No one should have been surprised by the WX that night. This crew had traversed this route the other direction a day or so earlier; In WX that was almost at PEAK of cycle.
The other 9 flights that traversed that exact region (all with the same WX reports) within 4 hours all went thru without difficulty.
Somehow these facts keep escaping from collective consciousness every 10 pages or so.
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The other 9 flights that traversed that exact region (all with the same WX reports) within 4 hours all went thru without difficulty.
Somehow these facts keep escaping from collective consciousness every 10 pages or so.
Somehow these facts keep escaping from collective consciousness every 10 pages or so.
Are we really 'forgetting' the fact that an accident is an unexpected occurrence ?
Last edited by HarryMann; 15th Sep 2009 at 11:36.
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Harry, may I also add that an accident is caused by humans and should be avoidable. An 'act of God' may have brought down AF447, but as had been said many times other flights passed through the ITCZ without mishap. The flight crew were familiar with this region. Oh for the CVR.
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jcjeant, the satellite image referred to in the message sent at 0031 hours to AF447 was the image from 0000 hours; it was not an image from a day earlier.
The weather-related messages between AF447 and AF dispatch
The BEA preliminary report does not include the image from 0000 hours. The earliest image in the report is for 0037 hours, which shows the presence of a mesoscale convective system along the route of flight.
A scientist at the Jet Propulsion Lab, NASA sent the following imagery to Tim Vasquez. Note the comment that several storms at 0330Z, by this NASA lab's calculations, had penetrated the troposphere.
Air France 447 - AFR447 - A detailed meteorological analysis - Comments from pilots and other aviation professionals
The weather-related messages between AF447 and AF dispatch
à 22 h 51 l’équipage demande et reçoit les METAR des aérodromes brésiliens de Belo Horizonte, Salvador de Bahia et Recife,
à 0 h 31 le dispatch envoie le message suivant :
« BONJOUR AF447
METEO EN ROUTE SAILOR :
PHOTO SAT DE 0000Z : CONVECTION ZCIT SALPU/TASIL
PREVI CAT : NIL
SLTS DISPATCH »,
à 0 h 33 l’équipage demande et reçoit les METAR et TAF des aérodromes de
Paris Charles de Gaulle, San Salvador et Sal, Amilcar.
à 0 h 57 l’équipage se renseigne sur l’utilisation du deuxième aérodrome
d’appui ETOPS et le dispatch répond à 1 h 02,
à 1 h 13 l’équipage demande et reçoit les METAR et TAF de Dakar,
Nouakchott et Natal,
à 0 h 31 le dispatch envoie le message suivant :
« BONJOUR AF447
METEO EN ROUTE SAILOR :
PHOTO SAT DE 0000Z : CONVECTION ZCIT SALPU/TASIL
PREVI CAT : NIL
SLTS DISPATCH »,
à 0 h 33 l’équipage demande et reçoit les METAR et TAF des aérodromes de
Paris Charles de Gaulle, San Salvador et Sal, Amilcar.
à 0 h 57 l’équipage se renseigne sur l’utilisation du deuxième aérodrome
d’appui ETOPS et le dispatch répond à 1 h 02,
à 1 h 13 l’équipage demande et reçoit les METAR et TAF de Dakar,
Nouakchott et Natal,
A scientist at the Jet Propulsion Lab, NASA sent the following imagery to Tim Vasquez. Note the comment that several storms at 0330Z, by this NASA lab's calculations, had penetrated the troposphere.
Air France 447 - AFR447 - A detailed meteorological analysis - Comments from pilots and other aviation professionals
