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Old 20th Jun 2009, 06:42
  #2001 (permalink)  
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ELAC - just wondering about the structure of the part in question - I wonder if it isn't honeycomb with CFRP covering?

Been Accounting;
Thank you for the information on the galley position. Can you say whether the galley faces, (bins and trollies), aft or forward?

I ask because the supports on the bottom of the structure are bent over to one side which will tell us which direction the structure left it's supports - to port or to starboard. (Please Note: I am not claiming anything here in terms of breakup sequence or causes other than determing which way it was forced during the sequence).

Last edited by PJ2; 20th Jun 2009 at 06:55.
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 07:36
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PJ2, not sure if this galley picture helps.

Google Image Result for http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/7/2/7/1494727.jpg
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 07:37
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ELAC
...would identify the piece of flight control surface wreckage as being a portion of the wing leading edge that normally lies beneath a leading edge slat.
From the camber and rivet configuration my guess is that this piece came from the upper side fairly close to the wing tip.
I disagree, as leading edge is of much greater arc and joins to front of wing box. Seeing as the remnant in question appeared to have a complete airfoil (not a Nike like swoosh of the slats), this is much more likely a trailing edge flap. Perhaps it and the canoe were proximal to the recovered spoiler?

The small notch is the point at which an actuator rod extends through from the slat drive to the slat. In fact, a close look at the photo suggests that a part of the actuator rod is still present within the notch. Notches of this sort do not exist on the alierons, flaps, horizontal stabs or elevators, at least not that I've ever seen.
Flaps do have rods and notches - they are difficult to see even when fully extended.










Aeronautically yours,
Machaca
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 07:57
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Another galley pic...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/19/11...9e38b1.jpg?v=0
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 08:16
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The double sided walk in galley I think is the aft one. The recovered piece I think is from the forward one (the 200 numbers), and if it helps it does not appear to have the counter, that might tell someone more familiar if it was facing forward or aft.

Shame you can't see the numbers in this pic, but it has the counter, so if my suspicion is correct the recovered piece might sit directly across from one like this.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/49/13...61ddf3.jpg?v=0

Hopefully someone with more first hand knowledge can sort this out.
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 08:33
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About the Galley picture:

AF Cabin Crew, posted Airliners.net Sat Jun 20 2009:
I would like to once again confirm that this is the galley in business class. When you board door 2L and go towards 2R it will be on your left. The galley Zeke is talking about with the espresso machine and ovens is on the other side.

-On the latest photos of the FAB you have the "cupbards" in front of seats 5AB and 5JK,
-We have the chief purser work station seat that's located in a cupboard by door 1L, in-flight it is usually taken out of it's cupboard so the pursers can sit on and work on the paperwork.
-Yellow case is the defebrillator also located by door 2R.
-On the third picture of the globo.com it looks like they found the cupboard with the video system that is by door 1L as well but I'm not sure about it, only thing that makes me say that's it is the video system is that it is all black.

Concerning the trolleys, I think they were in the galley latched, particulary the white-wine:champagne one that we hardly take out completely, also that galley has the the breakfast trolley that we do not take out before we do the service prior to arrival at destination. I believe the trolleys are missing because the galley is built on top of the planes floor and not it's own.
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 09:14
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Thanks takata that is very helpful.

It sounds like we have a few items from that same area. Does anyone know if the green cylinder is the crew O2 supply and where it is normally?
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 11:42
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http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...flapcanoe1.jpg

Looks like the RAT door to me.
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 14:51
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faulty or failed ?

re post # 1981:

This is possibly significance with the the IR2 message and the TCAS FAULT message; these should not have been generated because of an external ADR problem, but because of internally detected faults
Interesting informative post VicMel. Thanks

I think it's an operator's option to retrieve warnings displayed to the crew in addition to maintenance fault reports.

The TCAS FAULT message was a warning (coded WNxxx...) so it may just be signaling a problem preventing its normal operation, not its failure.

The IR2 message, however, is a fault report (codd FRxxx...). From your description of the maintenance reports specs, it appears that IR2 had detected an internal failure.
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 15:29
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IR2

Maybe only one pitot (stand-by, linked to ADIRU3 and ISIS) was blocked and the disagreement between ADRs was later amplified by the IR2 fault (and the consequently erroneous ADR2 output).
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 16:44
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Why not measuring the outside ambient air? The surrounding air is the most important game of all to measure -- ambient air ultimately is controlling everything else in the flight envelope.
The point is that to get good results from solid state gyros and accelerometers, you need to compensate for temperature. Hence one temp probe per sensor as mentioned in this post:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...ml#post5007882

What matters is the temperature of the sensor itelf, not the outside temperature or even the air temperature inside the ISIS box.

Semiconductor chips are pretty good at measuring themselves. A patch of calibrated diodes somewhere on the chip and a mux into a ADC is all one needs for zero-pincount internal temp precison measurement, suitable for whatever corrections might be desired for precision calibration. Pins are more valuable than gold on most chips.
That really depends on the application (pin count issue). I doubt this is a highly integrated system using custom ICs. The main goal would be accuracy.
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 17:46
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Is this the ISIS unit involved ?

Integrated Electronic Standby Instrument for Commercial Aircraft

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Old 20th Jun 2009, 17:47
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Question 10 days (max) to find the FDR & CVR

Time is running out if the FRD and/or CVR are to be found. 2/3rds of the way through the 30 days they could signal.

Anyone know the latest on the seabed search?
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 17:52
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Galley section

Yes, that it is intact suggests that the plane was flat-spinning and impacted flat against the ocean at not too great a speed - certainly a nose-in from any significant altitude would have likely rendered any large structure into small pieces - however people have pointed out that it's very difficult if not impossible for a large airliner to flat-spin - this may be otherwise if the VS and/or empennage is missing but the plane is otherwise mostly intact. In that case the large concentration of weight in the engines could provide a sort of gyroscopic stabilization to the spin.

-drl
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 18:10
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Is this the ISIS unit involved?

Yes, quite likely. You will see that the French typically also have their own form of address for it - IESI rather than ISIS

Last edited by AstraMike; 20th Jun 2009 at 18:40.
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 18:13
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data recorder recovery

Pingers are helpful but unnecessary - in other deep sea accidents the recorders were discovered simply by examining the wreckage pattern - the wreckage will be found, and then hopefully the recorders. In the Helderberg accident the CVR was found after more than two months in 16000 ft of water. (The FDR was not found.)

-drl
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 18:31
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Flat Spin

You are assuming that the "flat" in "flat spin" means that the fuselage is horizontal. That is certainly not the case in a Pitts S2, at least not always, and when my then boss used to demonstrate flat spins at airshows in his Super Chipmunk, (even though the FAA claimed it was impossible in those days) and first tried it in a Lockheed 12; those flat spins were not horizontal either. However, both Pitts and Chipmunk lost altitude at an alarming rate and although I dont remember much about the L-12, I suspect an A330 would too; it was not a falling leaf sort of experience... Therefore, I would suggest it more likely that the aircraft flew into the water at a minimal angle rather than spinning in.
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 18:38
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Is this the ISIS unit involved ?

Integrated Electronic Standby Instrument for Commercial Aircraft
Sure is....
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 18:40
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What are the SOPs, or "common practices", regarding selection of probe heat ON versus AUTO in certain conditions, even if icing is not common? In other words, what would be the typical selection for this particular route?

I ask because I continue to be intrigued by the possibility that at least two Pitot probes have failed almost simultaneously.

I would be also curious to know, how exactly the AUTO works. Maintain the probe temperature between two values? If so, what would be the typical duty cycle?
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Old 20th Jun 2009, 18:47
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Pitot Heat - Again

From Earlier in this thread, AUTO is "normal" used in flight but only works when the aircraft leaves the ground. ON is used on the ground, if required...
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