AF447
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Largely its conjecture but I would have thought that what stays bouyant remains that way until its physical state changes, it gets saturated or breaks up and cannot displace its own mass in water.
If something does sink then then there arent many factors that can make it float again. Studies of the big ships which have sank (Bismarck in particular) indicate that what goes down stays down.
If something does sink then then there arent many factors that can make it float again. Studies of the big ships which have sank (Bismarck in particular) indicate that what goes down stays down.
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I doubt that parts are breaking free from the airplane and floating to the surface. Within the general search zone, the minimum depth is 864 meters, the maximum depth is 4606 meters.
Pressure increases in the ocean at roughly one atmosphere for every ten meters of depth. What made a section of the plane buoyant at the surface would likely be crushed at the depths this plane is now lying at. I doubt that honeycomb structures are designed to withstand hundreds of bars of pressure.
Pressure increases in the ocean at roughly one atmosphere for every ten meters of depth. What made a section of the plane buoyant at the surface would likely be crushed at the depths this plane is now lying at. I doubt that honeycomb structures are designed to withstand hundreds of bars of pressure.
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fuselage may have hit the ocean on its underbelly
Autopsies Suggest Airbus Passengers Were Seated, Estado Says - Bloomberg.com
Autopsies Suggest Airbus Passengers Were Seated, Estado Says
By Laura Price
June 17 (Bloomberg) -- The injuries to many of the bodies recovered after the June 1 crash of an Air France plane suggest they were seated at the time of impact, indicating at least one section of fuselage may have hit the ocean on its underbelly, O Estado de S. Paulo said, citing unidentified investigators.
Autopsies showed a majority of the 43 bodies examined so far had leg and hip fractures typical of a trauma suffered while sitting, the Brazilian newspaper said. The lack of many skull injuries in the passengers on the Rio de Janeiro-to-Paris flight also suggests the Airbus A330-200 didn’t nosedive, Estado said.
An official from the Legal Medical Institute in the Brazilian city of Recife declined to comment today in a telephone interview, saying official information hasn’t yet been published.
Air France Flight 447 carried 228 passengers and crew members. Fifty bodies have been recovered from the Atlantic Ocean.
Autopsies Suggest Airbus Passengers Were Seated, Estado Says
By Laura Price
June 17 (Bloomberg) -- The injuries to many of the bodies recovered after the June 1 crash of an Air France plane suggest they were seated at the time of impact, indicating at least one section of fuselage may have hit the ocean on its underbelly, O Estado de S. Paulo said, citing unidentified investigators.
Autopsies showed a majority of the 43 bodies examined so far had leg and hip fractures typical of a trauma suffered while sitting, the Brazilian newspaper said. The lack of many skull injuries in the passengers on the Rio de Janeiro-to-Paris flight also suggests the Airbus A330-200 didn’t nosedive, Estado said.
An official from the Legal Medical Institute in the Brazilian city of Recife declined to comment today in a telephone interview, saying official information hasn’t yet been published.
Air France Flight 447 carried 228 passengers and crew members. Fifty bodies have been recovered from the Atlantic Ocean.
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Re-discussions about sunken debris - as someone else said, a battleship would cetainly sink but after the 1979 Fastnet disaster most of the GRP hulls were found 'floating' around 10 metres below the surface (where compression equalised the density of the material with the water). Since this a/c was largely composites there are probably bits 'floating' at many levels of the ocean.
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The containers have obviously been removed once on board the search vessel.
== Debris distribution ==
Something not asked so far... viz debris distribution. If (and only if) a cruise alt. breakup occurred (ejecting much of what has been found), then...
Having mulled over what sort of distances lighter debris might be spread over falling from 35,000 ft, using 'back of fag packet' sums, something like 5 to 10 miles might be the maximum to be expected, making a few (scary but not too extreme) estimates of thermal updraft and winds aloft.
Thus if two (light) items travelled in opposite directions, as a first stab, one wouldn't expect them to be more than 10 to 20 miles apart..
Happy to be shot down, but I rather like 'some' numbers to work with, rather than none...
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Would anyone know the location when found of the elevator bit? (if it proves to be so). If near the VS' position when found, that would suggest a loss of more tailfeathers at upset than just the fin/rudder. The forward VS at the root is so very close to the aft pressure bulkhead, if it separated and disrupted the aft fuselage structure including the HS attach roots, the entire tail portion would have been involved, perhaps (perhaps) failing the entire tail to include a full cross section of the aft cabin. The 'cabin pres.' cue would have followed.
Last edited by Will Fraser; 19th Jun 2009 at 23:31.
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The last photo in the new update ( caboclo_nova2.jpg picture by DorianBanks - Photobucket ) shows the overhead baggage stow facade listing seats 42 K, J.
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I say the right decision was to remove the aluminum containers from the galley before lifting it on board, the containers probably contained sea water and the added weight when netting the galley in would have deeply gouged the composite structure as it doesn’t have lifting points on it and is already severely weekend by impact. Plenty of photos of the position of the containers positions were most likely taken and there is no excuse for breaking a big peace like this by lifting it waterlogged.
The photographs are exalent, I have worked with composite building and repair on ultra light sailboats, other marine craft, airplanes and high speed “bullet” trains, and with the trains especially I have been involved in recovery and analysis of aluminum and composite debris after a mass transit accidents, very interesting photographs.
The photographs are exalent, I have worked with composite building and repair on ultra light sailboats, other marine craft, airplanes and high speed “bullet” trains, and with the trains especially I have been involved in recovery and analysis of aluminum and composite debris after a mass transit accidents, very interesting photographs.
The latest photos (today's) appear to show the floating debris from the large section fuselage splats with the ocean. this to me suggests that the drift from this material is current and wave borne from where the major sunken debris field is.
How much came off separately in the air is unknown (to me) but I agree that some of the pieces shown earlier (crew rest etc.) likely were shed before the fuselage hit the water.
To me nothing new and revealing, just a confirmation in some evidence that it broke up in the air and came down in large sections of fuselage and small pieces from inside the fuselage. Then the rest probably disgorged itself mostly upward as the big pieces hit the water. The question remains why.
How much came off separately in the air is unknown (to me) but I agree that some of the pieces shown earlier (crew rest etc.) likely were shed before the fuselage hit the water.
To me nothing new and revealing, just a confirmation in some evidence that it broke up in the air and came down in large sections of fuselage and small pieces from inside the fuselage. Then the rest probably disgorged itself mostly upward as the big pieces hit the water. The question remains why.
deSitter;
Yes, agree.
Will Fraser;
If pressed, I'd say aileron but who knows at this moment? It's about an oxygen-bottle's width - I think the elevator is much larger but when you're walking around it, everything is large! 
, however, in planform view in the AOM, the elevators are at least 3x the size of the ailerons.
What we can say is, it IS a flight control surface, (but most certainly not part of the horizontal stab box, which is metal, not honeycomb structure).
We have also in the photographs thanks to DorianB, a clear photo of two separate rows of overhead panels which would be situated above the passenger seats, containing the reading lights, seatbelt/no smoke signs and, as can be seen, the O2 masks.
Not sure where the First Aid container (flat door, pull-up latch box-like structure) is located but it would be in/near the F/A's area of work. The overhead bin indicating a green cross is where the First Aid/Doctor's kit/Defibrilator or possibly an extra oxygen bottle for F/As to walk about the cabin with, is stored.
Someone here made the observation that the elongated, more robust-looking structure at the bottom right in the photo of the collected wreckage looks like a "canoe", (which covers the flap tracks). I think that's possible. I am left wondering if the door which is part of the structure is the RAT door. I've seen it deployed on the ground, (during troubleshooting, we deployed it on the request of maintenance) and that's what the door looks like but obviously I have to qualify that - the piece is buried beneath a lot of other wreckage.
I don't think the items that look like ULD's, are in fact ULDs. ULDs are a thing honeycomb structure and covered with an aluminum surface. These appear to be almost as thick as the bulkhead structures. They're not big enough, either. Part of the cabin - not sure where?
Something to keep in the back of our minds is, we don't know in which order these photographs are and so cannot attribute their time stamp with the order of discovery at sea. We already know that the galley was found on June 07th but the photos we see of it here didnt' show up until the 17th.
lomapaseo;
Agree - nothing new but a confirmation of an in-flight breakup or, (in my view far less likely), a "low speed ditching" as opposed to a high-speed impact with the water. Due increased time during "descent" and assuming messages were generated after 02:14:59 and communications were working, we'd possibly have more ACARS messages, for one thing.
At what altitude and in what sequence the breakup occurred, we do not know.
The HS itself is too big I think for the debris to be part of that.
Will Fraser;
What we might be looking at is the outermost and underside tip of the port elevator. Unfamiliar with that area of this a/c,
, however, in planform view in the AOM, the elevators are at least 3x the size of the ailerons. What we can say is, it IS a flight control surface, (but most certainly not part of the horizontal stab box, which is metal, not honeycomb structure).
We have also in the photographs thanks to DorianB, a clear photo of two separate rows of overhead panels which would be situated above the passenger seats, containing the reading lights, seatbelt/no smoke signs and, as can be seen, the O2 masks.
Not sure where the First Aid container (flat door, pull-up latch box-like structure) is located but it would be in/near the F/A's area of work. The overhead bin indicating a green cross is where the First Aid/Doctor's kit/Defibrilator or possibly an extra oxygen bottle for F/As to walk about the cabin with, is stored.
Someone here made the observation that the elongated, more robust-looking structure at the bottom right in the photo of the collected wreckage looks like a "canoe", (which covers the flap tracks). I think that's possible. I am left wondering if the door which is part of the structure is the RAT door. I've seen it deployed on the ground, (during troubleshooting, we deployed it on the request of maintenance) and that's what the door looks like but obviously I have to qualify that - the piece is buried beneath a lot of other wreckage.
I don't think the items that look like ULD's, are in fact ULDs. ULDs are a thing honeycomb structure and covered with an aluminum surface. These appear to be almost as thick as the bulkhead structures. They're not big enough, either. Part of the cabin - not sure where?
Something to keep in the back of our minds is, we don't know in which order these photographs are and so cannot attribute their time stamp with the order of discovery at sea. We already know that the galley was found on June 07th but the photos we see of it here didnt' show up until the 17th.
lomapaseo;
Agree - nothing new but a confirmation of an in-flight breakup or, (in my view far less likely), a "low speed ditching" as opposed to a high-speed impact with the water. Due increased time during "descent" and assuming messages were generated after 02:14:59 and communications were working, we'd possibly have more ACARS messages, for one thing.
At what altitude and in what sequence the breakup occurred, we do not know.
Last edited by PJ2; 20th Jun 2009 at 03:41.
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I have a very simple question and I've reviewed virtually all of the posts in both threads and not found an answer.
Of the pilots' flight instrument displays, what do they lose if all 3 pitot sources fail? Do they lose everything including bank, turn and vertical airspeed or do they just lose the airspeed display?
Of the pilots' flight instrument displays, what do they lose if all 3 pitot sources fail? Do they lose everything including bank, turn and vertical airspeed or do they just lose the airspeed display?
Airspeed.
Bank & Turn rely on IRU ATT data, basically gyros.
Vertical Speed & Altitude readouts come from the Static port data via the Air Data computers.
In my opinion, the pitot would be the most likely lost sensor set. The static ports are not facing the airstream and would not collect ice particles.
PJ2
Yes I think that it is a canoe from a wing (significant only if it confirms the wings were still attached when it hit the water) therefore a much denser debris field.
I don't see any signs of water hydraulics on this stuff in the longitudnal direction thus I suspect it hit mostly flat protected by the pressure vessel which took the brunt of the water impact. Also good news for the search effort.
my fingers are crossed that they will at least find something dense on the ocean bottom besides an orange box or two with a pinger.
Yes I think that it is a canoe from a wing (significant only if it confirms the wings were still attached when it hit the water) therefore a much denser debris field.
I don't see any signs of water hydraulics on this stuff in the longitudnal direction thus I suspect it hit mostly flat protected by the pressure vessel which took the brunt of the water impact. Also good news for the search effort.
my fingers are crossed that they will at least find something dense on the ocean bottom besides an orange box or two with a pinger.
lomapaseo;
Yes, agree, very little evidence of distortion - more blunt-force breakage. Re "something dense", yes that is a good thing even if the recorders aren't found soon - they may be with the main wreckage, depending upon what happened to the tail-section.
I don't see any signs of water hydraulics on this stuff in the longitudnal direction thus I suspect it hit mostly flat protected by the pressure vessel which took the brunt of the water impact. Also good news for the search effort.
my fingers are crossed that they will at least find something dense on the ocean bottom besides an orange box or two with a pinger.
my fingers are crossed that they will at least find something dense on the ocean bottom besides an orange box or two with a pinger.
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safetypee/h3dxb:
The temperature probes would be used to improve the accuracy.
Electronic sensors like the accelerometers and rotation sensors in the ISIS often have a slight temperature sensitivity. For the same actual acceleration, the sensor may read slightly higher or lower based on the temperature - few percent maybe. The effect can be characterized quite accurately (sometimes done for each individual part). Then by measuring the temperature of the sensor, the software can compensate for it.
The temperature sensors would be measuring the temp of the sensor chips within the ISIS box, not an external or ambient temp.
Can you establish what the purpose of the temperature sensors is, and if these are internal to ISIS or require an external temperature input.
Electronic sensors like the accelerometers and rotation sensors in the ISIS often have a slight temperature sensitivity. For the same actual acceleration, the sensor may read slightly higher or lower based on the temperature - few percent maybe. The effect can be characterized quite accurately (sometimes done for each individual part). Then by measuring the temperature of the sensor, the software can compensate for it.
The temperature sensors would be measuring the temp of the sensor chips within the ISIS box, not an external or ambient temp.
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If pressed, I'd say aileron but who knows at this moment? It's about an oxygen-bottle's width - I think the elevator is much larger but when you're walking around it, everything is large! , however, in planform view in the AOM, the elevators are at least 3x the size of the ailerons.
What we can say is, it IS a flight control surface, (but most certainly not part of the horizontal stab box, which is metal, not honeycomb structure).
What we can say is, it IS a flight control surface, (but most certainly not part of the horizontal stab box, which is metal, not honeycomb structure).
Yes I think that it is a canoe from a wing (significant only if it confirms the wings were still attached when it hit the water) therefore a much denser debris field.
PJ2, lomapaseo,
With a reasonable degree of certainty I would identify the piece of flight control surface wreckage as being a portion of the wing leading edge that normally lies beneath a leading edge slat. The small notch is the point at which an actuator rod extends through from the slat drive to the slat. In fact, a close look at the photo suggests that a part of the actuator rod is still present within the notch. Notches of this sort do not exist on the alierons, flaps, horizontal stabs or elevators, at least not that I've ever seen.
From the camber and rivet configuration my guess is that this piece came from the upper side fairly close to the wing tip. A bit of supporting evidence for this supposition is the grease mark on the rear portion of the section. This sort of mark is usually found on components nearby lubrication points, in this case probably a slat track that would have been located to one side or the other of the piece recovered.
ELAC
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In reply to #2017
Forward of Door 2 - The only galley position with five trolleys
Can i ask you guys - would this galley wher would this galley have been situated on the aircraft ?
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The temperature sensors would be measuring the temp of the sensor chips within the ISIS box, not an external or ambient temp.
Physics of air change quite a bit with temperature, and ambient air temps change at a very high frequency in some cases at Mach 0.8 - especially in the Equatorial zone.
Semiconductor chips are pretty good at measuring themselves. A patch of calibrated diodes somewhere on the chip and a mux into a ADC is all one needs for zero-pincount internal temp precison measurement, suitable for whatever corrections might be desired for precision calibration. Pins are more valuable than gold on most chips.
Last edited by arcniz; 20th Jun 2009 at 07:15.