a 320 x-wind landing tecnique
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From: Italy
a 320 x-wind landing tecnique
Hi,
I just viwed the video of the airbus a 320 having a wing strike on the Amburg airport last year.
Daes anybody know if the final report has been released.
For my curiosity which is your prefferred landing tecnique during x-wind?
thanks
I just viwed the video of the airbus a 320 having a wing strike on the Amburg airport last year.
Daes anybody know if the final report has been released.
For my curiosity which is your prefferred landing tecnique during x-wind?
thanks
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From: Eden Valley
Well you do if you look at expanded X-W technique notes from Airbus.
And if you have exposure to high w/v, toward the maximum, wing down in combination with decrab is essential.
Airbus confirms this in their notes.
And if you have exposure to high w/v, toward the maximum, wing down in combination with decrab is essential.
Airbus confirms this in their notes.
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From: Eden Valley
Rubbish.
Decrab at 3o plus knots only and you land with 15 degrees angle off. Risking aircraft damage.
Decrab and wing-down/ side slip is a safe combination. I would suggest that some folks who think they decrab only, in fact, use a decrab/sideslip combo in very high wind conditions.
Decrab at 3o plus knots only and you land with 15 degrees angle off. Risking aircraft damage.
Decrab and wing-down/ side slip is a safe combination. I would suggest that some folks who think they decrab only, in fact, use a decrab/sideslip combo in very high wind conditions.
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Greetings
Due to Roll laws, you cannot side slip a FBW airbus, any type, that s the way it is, now if you still can manage to side slip it, it is not recommanded due to the stress imposed on the rudder, this is not rubbish this is a fact.
BTW it doesnot harm to be less arrogant and more polite
Due to Roll laws, you cannot side slip a FBW airbus, any type, that s the way it is, now if you still can manage to side slip it, it is not recommanded due to the stress imposed on the rudder, this is not rubbish this is a fact.
BTW it doesnot harm to be less arrogant and more polite
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From: Eden Valley
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: USA
A lot of incorrect instruction....
Gentlemen:
Please refer to:
1. Airbus Flight Operations Briefing Notes
A. Landing Techniques
1. Crosswind Landings
2. FCOM Bulletin No. 828-1
June 04
Use of Rudder on Transport Category Aircraft
3. Flight Crew Operating Maunal
3.03.22 P4
4. Flight Crew Training Manual
NO - 160 09 JAN 09
P 2/10
P 3/10
As I've said many times before on many topics/issues, please read the book for yourself. It's not nuclear physics. If what you read contradicts
your company's SOP, you have to respectfully point this out to the appropriate people in your organization. (But, you're still compelled to comply with the SOP.)
All of the above-mentioned references are available on the internet. I think after your readings, you'll find the crosswind procedures (not 'techniques') to be very clear and easy to understand. And, I think you'll find much of what both is taught and practiced is nonsense.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
Please refer to:
1. Airbus Flight Operations Briefing Notes
A. Landing Techniques
1. Crosswind Landings
2. FCOM Bulletin No. 828-1
June 04
Use of Rudder on Transport Category Aircraft
3. Flight Crew Operating Maunal
3.03.22 P4
4. Flight Crew Training Manual
NO - 160 09 JAN 09
P 2/10
P 3/10
As I've said many times before on many topics/issues, please read the book for yourself. It's not nuclear physics. If what you read contradicts
your company's SOP, you have to respectfully point this out to the appropriate people in your organization. (But, you're still compelled to comply with the SOP.)
All of the above-mentioned references are available on the internet. I think after your readings, you'll find the crosswind procedures (not 'techniques') to be very clear and easy to understand. And, I think you'll find much of what both is taught and practiced is nonsense.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Eden Valley
I started flying 320's with a launch customer. X-W technique has been a poorly communicated evolution- like many things Airbus.
The FCOM's have been full of holes for years. Slowly, information has been inserted all over the place by Airbus.
I still get guys telling me you never need to drop a wing with Airbus because its fly by wire or the active flight control law in the flare is blah blah.
Anything above 10kts X-W I drop a wing for finesse. Above 30kts X-W its for directional control.
Been doing it for the last 12000 hours.
And funny enough, Airbus, after a few incidents, has got around to scientifically expressing what good pilots have been capable of doing for years ( in the link I pasted ).
The FCOM's have been full of holes for years. Slowly, information has been inserted all over the place by Airbus.
I still get guys telling me you never need to drop a wing with Airbus because its fly by wire or the active flight control law in the flare is blah blah.
Anything above 10kts X-W I drop a wing for finesse. Above 30kts X-W its for directional control.
Been doing it for the last 12000 hours.
And funny enough, Airbus, after a few incidents, has got around to scientifically expressing what good pilots have been capable of doing for years ( in the link I pasted ).
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From: Correr es mi destino por no llevar papel
You can sideslip the A320, just don't hold the stick against the rudder. However, timely and appropriate decrab manuever makes sideslip unnecessary. Decrab and just slightly banking into wind worked as a charm for me.
Final world is not out on bent wingtip fence in Hamburg, rumor has it that it was simultaneous left stick with left rudder - not a good combination with right crosswind.
Final world is not out on bent wingtip fence in Hamburg, rumor has it that it was simultaneous left stick with left rudder - not a good combination with right crosswind.
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Melbourne
The one detailed in FCOM 3. We don't really have a choice!
Read the question again :
For my curiosity which is your prefferred landing tecnique during x-wind?
For those who do not have access to the FCOM, the FCOM says :
Crosswind landings are conventional. The preferred technique is to use the rudder to align the aircraft with the runway heading, during the flare, while using lateral control to maintain the aircraft on the runway centerline (Refer to SOP 3.03.22). The lateral control mode does not change until the wheels are on the ground, so there is no discontinuity in the control laws. The aircraft tends to roll gently in the conventional sense as drift decreases, and the pilot may have to use some normal cross control to maintain roll
attitude.
attitude.
You say
We don't really have a choice!
I believe we have many choices as if you read carefully, it says "the preferred" technique only. It does not say this is the only technqiue with strongs words such as "must" and "only".
If you refer to "Airbus Flight Operations Briefing Notes - Landing Techniques - Crosswind Landing", you will actually see that Airbus says that 2 different final approach techniques which may be used :
1- wings level / crabbed approach
2- sideslip approach
Yes, Airbus actually says "2 different techniques" may be used !!
The answer is not so "black and white" and you say it is and there is more than 1 technique which we can use (as per FCOM, in your own words)
Learn your FCOM better before you think you are smart enough to advise others to refer to it.
Now to answer the original question :
My preferred technique is to decrab (rudder to straighten the nose) during the flare (after the 20' call) and aileron (sidestick) to keep on centreline !!
Last edited by John Citizen; 13th February 2009 at 01:18.
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From: Blighty
JC. Spoken like a true Australian.
Your company's FCOM 3.03.22 may say that. Ours has nothing about landing in a crosswind. Our Flight Crew Training Manual (Airbus Industrie produced) says:
FINAL APPROACH
In crosswind conditions, a crabbed-approach should be flown.
FLARE
The objectives of the lateral and directional control of the aircraft during the flare are:
- To land on the centerline
- And, to minimize the loads on the main landing gear.
During the flare, rudder should be applied as required to align the aircraft with the runway heading. Any tendency to drift downwind should be counteracted by an appropriate lateral (roll) input on the sidestick. In the case of a very strong cross wind, the aircraft may be landed with a residual drift (up to about 5 °) to prevent an excessive bank (up to about 5 °). Consequently, combination of the partial de-crab and wing down techniques may be required.
And FCOM Bulletin 827 (Aircraft Handling In Final Approach) says:
Rudder use should be limited to the "de-crab" maneuver in case of crosswind, while maintaining wings level, with the sidestick in the roll axis.
The Airbus Flight Operations Briefing Notes are not an official document in our company and are not used.
So, with the use of the word "should" I and all my colleagues understand we don't really have a choice. And I'm quite happy that I know what my FCOMs say, thank you.
Your company's FCOM 3.03.22 may say that. Ours has nothing about landing in a crosswind. Our Flight Crew Training Manual (Airbus Industrie produced) says:
FINAL APPROACH
In crosswind conditions, a crabbed-approach should be flown.
FLARE
The objectives of the lateral and directional control of the aircraft during the flare are:
- To land on the centerline
- And, to minimize the loads on the main landing gear.
During the flare, rudder should be applied as required to align the aircraft with the runway heading. Any tendency to drift downwind should be counteracted by an appropriate lateral (roll) input on the sidestick. In the case of a very strong cross wind, the aircraft may be landed with a residual drift (up to about 5 °) to prevent an excessive bank (up to about 5 °). Consequently, combination of the partial de-crab and wing down techniques may be required.
And FCOM Bulletin 827 (Aircraft Handling In Final Approach) says:
Rudder use should be limited to the "de-crab" maneuver in case of crosswind, while maintaining wings level, with the sidestick in the roll axis.
The Airbus Flight Operations Briefing Notes are not an official document in our company and are not used.
So, with the use of the word "should" I and all my colleagues understand we don't really have a choice. And I'm quite happy that I know what my FCOMs say, thank you.
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From: Eden Valley
Sorry Dan but that Airbus Briefing Note on X-W LDG's is official Airbus literature in your company and is used as a TRG reference. It may even be ( should be ) on the intranet for rank and file.
FCOM's are taken too literally and are vague due Franglais. I feel a number of serious incidents have been as a result.
Applying that vague FCOM X-W LDG technique in the very occasional, high X-W conditions of your region, is a trap.
As I've said. I believe folks decrab and slip in the flare, in very high X-W's, to maintain directional control,without realising it.
FCOM's are taken too literally and are vague due Franglais. I feel a number of serious incidents have been as a result.
Applying that vague FCOM X-W LDG technique in the very occasional, high X-W conditions of your region, is a trap.
As I've said. I believe folks decrab and slip in the flare, in very high X-W's, to maintain directional control,without realising it.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 13th February 2009 at 08:52.
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 481
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From: Melbourne
Dan :
No, I don't think so.
In your first post you wrote :
In your second post you wrote :
First you tell me that we MUST follow the FCOM without choice, then next you tell me that your FCOM has nothing about a crosswind landing in it at all. You seem to contradict yourself here. Now do we follow the FCOM or not ?
How can you follow the FCOM regarding crosswind landings as you say we MUST if there is nothing about crosswind landings in there at all ?
And I'm quite happy that I know what my FCOMs say, thank you.
In your first post you wrote :
The one detailed in FCOM 3.
Your company's FCOM 3.03.22 may say that. Ours has nothing about landing in a crosswind
How can you follow the FCOM regarding crosswind landings as you say we MUST if there is nothing about crosswind landings in there at all ?
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From: Correr es mi destino por no llevar papel
Originally Posted by John Tullamarine
Decrab and just slightly banking into wind worked as a charm for me
I'm just a tad confused .. is not the above a sideslip ?
I'm just a tad confused .. is not the above a sideslip ?
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Finland
Having had to test it in earnest shall we say, I can verify that if you apply a large rudder input to straighten the aircraft, after a crabbed approach in a limiting crosswind, the wings will remain level without aileron input.
It prevented us leaving the tarmac after I gave the sector away to a first officer who I thought (incorrectly as it turned out) could handle a limiting crosswind. At least we were on the upwind side of the runway.
It is not comfortable and was not my preferred landing technique!!!
It prevented us leaving the tarmac after I gave the sector away to a first officer who I thought (incorrectly as it turned out) could handle a limiting crosswind. At least we were on the upwind side of the runway.
It is not comfortable and was not my preferred landing technique!!!
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Denver,Co USA
It sounds like the real answer to this question is it depends on who you are and who you work for. In 10 years of flying the airplane I just used the decrab method, but I saw FOs use a variety of methods since our FCOM did not specify a required method.