Which Aircraft Can Take Off Without Flaps?
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Sale, Australia
Concorde did it for years!
The use of canards on delta wings introduces a destabilising moment which is like wise countered by nose down elevon so once again giving a flap effect.
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
The Spanair thread has raised interesting questions in relation to passengers' awareness of problems and whether they should inform the crew when they think something is wrong.
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Hunched over a keyboard
Damn -you beat me to it.
some have "flaperons" - ailerons that droop (in a controlled fashion!) to double up as flaps.
some have "flaperons" - ailerons that droop (in a controlled fashion!) to double up as flaps.
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: high right
The Dash-8-300 has a supplement that allows a flap zero take-off. The aircraft itself has a small modification (a switch) that tells the take-off configuration warning that a flap zero take-off is to be undertaken, part of the after start checklist. This selection resets itself automatically with weight off wheels. Like the F-27 it improves second segment for hot and high conditions. The runway obviously has to be pretty long as the rotate speeds are in the region of 140KIAS. Pretty fast for a Dash-8!
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: France
Flapless take-offs
Now retired, I recall OCCASIONALLY using a 0° flap setting for take-off in turboprops, notably NAMCO YS11A and Saab 340 types.
ONLY when using 3000 metre runways with no obstacles and at very light take-off weights.
Neither of these aircraft were equipped with a T/O configuration alarm.
ONLY when using 3000 metre runways with no obstacles and at very light take-off weights.
Neither of these aircraft were equipped with a T/O configuration alarm.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: EDI, LHR, NQY
As mentioned earlier, F100 often zero flaps at take-off.
When bmi still flew the F100s I once heard at LHR a BA crew holding short of the departure runway making a radio call to a Midland crew lining up in front of them "just to advise that [their] flaps were not set". The (very polite) response from the F100 was that the flaps were set correctly!
When bmi still flew the F100s I once heard at LHR a BA crew holding short of the departure runway making a radio call to a Midland crew lining up in front of them "just to advise that [their] flaps were not set". The (very polite) response from the F100 was that the flaps were set correctly!
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: high right
The Dash-8-300 uses the flap zero take off to increase its RTOW with hot and high conditions. The flap 5 take off actually reduces the RTOW quite significantly. The runway we normally use for a flap zero take off is over 4000m long at 5500' amsl and is climb/obstacle limited and not runway limited. Its the second segment we need to perform in to carry the extra weight.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Chabanais, France
I had a good friend in AUH, (average temperature above 30C), who flew the BN2 and always took off from AUH with no flap selected, I and another younger pilot asked him about this and he explained he had done all the sums, (he had them written down), and since the runway was so long it was the sensible thing to do as it stood him in much better stead were he to lose an engine. Friend and I followed suit but thank God we never lost an engine. Our mentor was an ex RAF wartime Beaufighter pilot and we took what he said very seriously.
Joined: Sep 2008
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From: Asia
Might be a good idea to mention the riduculous increase in runway length when doing a no flap take off in most planes...and some should question why they are doing a no flap take off....Not something I would admit to in most transport category aircraft...
Fleet Manager
Joined: Apr 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: various places .....
Not something I would admit to in most transport category aircraft
If the configuration is declared in the AFM then it is available for use in appropriate circumstances. There is absolutely nothing untoward in using a certification configuration for takeoff. There may, of course, be maintenance consequences in the medium term eg increased wear patterns but that is a quite different commercial consideration.
Often the only way to get max weight is to go minimum flap (which may, or may not, be nil flap) .. for most aircraft with which I have had any experience, the maximum certification weight can only be achieved with minimum AFM flap takeoffs as the WAT limits cut in for larger flap settings. In general it is a case that you choose larger flap settings for short runways with benign obstacles, mid range flap for medium runways and/or modest obstacles, and minimum flap for longer runway with significant obstacles. All a case of horses for courses .. so long as all the various limitations are satisfied for any given takeoff with a particular configuration.
If the configuration is declared in the AFM then it is available for use in appropriate circumstances. There is absolutely nothing untoward in using a certification configuration for takeoff. There may, of course, be maintenance consequences in the medium term eg increased wear patterns but that is a quite different commercial consideration.
Often the only way to get max weight is to go minimum flap (which may, or may not, be nil flap) .. for most aircraft with which I have had any experience, the maximum certification weight can only be achieved with minimum AFM flap takeoffs as the WAT limits cut in for larger flap settings. In general it is a case that you choose larger flap settings for short runways with benign obstacles, mid range flap for medium runways and/or modest obstacles, and minimum flap for longer runway with significant obstacles. All a case of horses for courses .. so long as all the various limitations are satisfied for any given takeoff with a particular configuration.
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: UK
As already stated earlier, the Fokker 100/70 regularly departed with zero flap and no slats 'cos it didn't have any LE devices. When performance limited then a Flap 8 or Flap 15 departure would be flown. Don't have any performance data to hand but "the ridiculous increase in runway length when doing a no flap take off" was never an issue
