Application of P-RNAV in terminal airspace.

[300-600]

Have just read AIC92/2003 and TGL10 without finding the answer I was looking for.

My a/c is a 737NG which is P-RNAV capable.

My company is not P-RNAV approved (and I have not had the training which I need to answer the following questions).

1. Can someone please confirm I cannot operate an RNAV SID (such as the NICE PERUS 3B) which has no conventional overlay.

2. Is there such a thing as a PRNAV SID/STAR or only full RNAV and conventional overlay RNAV SID/STARs.

3. Is there any difference between SID and STARS...my understanding is that I cannot use RNAV (without conventional backup) below MSA on either?

[Permafrost_ATPL]

1) You can operate a B-RNAV departure which has no conventional overlay (you'll find there is no turn below MSA). You just can't fly a PRNAV departure (clearly says PRNAV on the plate, not just RNAV), such as OKTET 3A (since you're talking about NICE).

2) Yes, there is such a thing as a pure PRNAV sid/star, refer to 1

3) Correct. Must be PRNAV for no conventional nav below MSA on both

P

[Sir George Cayley]

P-RNAV is coming to UK airspace soon, but first DAP propose introducing B-NAV below FL 095. See the Campaign's website:
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...29&pagetype=90

This will also remove ADF receivers from the schedule, thus allowing all those who currently put ADF u/s in the remarks column to come clean and admit one isn't even fitted!

Sir George Cayley

[Sir George Cayley]

Just looking again at the first post, that AIC ref doesn't look right

http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...6_Y_125_en.pdf

This is the latest on the AIS website which laid the foundations for P-RNAV. I'm told the next step will widen the scope to CA beyond London late 2009/early 2010.

Also, I think the TGLs are to be included in EASA regulations; AMC 20-8 rings a bell.

Hope this helps

Sir George Cayley

[ACMS]

What ever happened to the day we used to file our own flight plans with the A/C equipment fitted: 2 VOR, 2 ILS, 2 ADF, Mode C etc etc

Too damn complicated now.

[rudolf]

Interesting that the OKTET 3A from Nice Aerad plate (or whatever they are called these days) does not state PRNAV. I had to look to the French AIP to confirm that it was indeed a PRNAV departure. I have been looking for a reference that any departure with no overlay is PRNAV, however, haven't been bored enough to hit PANSOPS yet.

[Right Way Up]

rudolf,

Our jepp charts have the Oktet 3a as a PRNAV departure which would suggest that Aerad have missed it off your charts.

[rudolf]

Have passed the info up, should be labeled next issue. Aerad, I mean EAG, yikes, rubbish!

[300-600]

Thanks for the replies so far guys.
The Oktet 3A/3E were actually the SIDs which started this thread for me and ,as has been said, certain plates do not state PRNAV which some pilots assume (incorrectly it seems) mean they can do a BRNAV departure without a conventional overlay. Although these two SIDs are similar the tracks are slightly different.

The AIC was from the crewroom (paper copy) which may well not have been updated (cost saving initiative rears its ugly head again).

If anyone can tell me how to get into PANSOPs I will have a look at the point Rudolf mentioned.

Cheers

[LLLK]

P-RNAV is a uniquely European approval and is called RNAV 1 in PANS-OPS (or will be when the next amendment is published this November) You should never fly an RNAV SID or STAR using B-RNAV unless it clearly states on the chart that this is authorised. The problem is that the chart that the State publishes is generally not the chart that the pilot sees - EAG, Jepp et al have their own company standards and sometimes stuff can get missed in the transfer from State to Industry.

As far as flight planning is concerned, stand by for a change when the new PBN rules come in - not sure when, but you will be asked to file PBN/D1-4 if Field 18. D1= RNAV 1 All sensors, D2= RNAV 1 GNSS, D3=RNAV 1 DME/DME and D4=RNAV 1 DME/DME/IRU

[LLLK]

P-RNAV is still governed by TGL 10 rev 1 at the moment. When it moves to AMC 20 I believe that it will be called AMC 20-16 but this will not be for another 6-9 months.

[Sir George Cayley]

PANS-OPS is ICAO Doc 4444 see ICAO | International Civil Aviation Organization

Have a credit card ready with plenty of spondulix as it's v expensive

What am I saying? You fly a BBJ

It's cheep

Sir George Cayley

[eflowj]

For free ICAO Docs go here: http://dcaa.slv.dk000/icaodocs/

DOC 4444 is there