No Alternate IFR fuel
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No Alternate IFR fuel
Now we are getting with fuel prices minumum fuel.
If you were to go CDG with good weather.cavok taf, originally holding LFPO as an alternate and had to hold for a while, then you decide to go no alternate ifr.
Would you do no alternate into Barcelona, Madrid because there is the ATC (possible holiding ) factor at these airports
Say you are in a 320 or if not how long in time in your a/c ?
What's your company policy on minumum fuel no alternate ?
Yes two independant runways,etc.
Due to traffic of hold too long how much fuel could you go down to before declaring a fuel emergency Mayday ?
You commit to the airport and then have to do a go around
Yeah dont like it but to avoid diverting to an alternate.
If you were to go CDG with good weather.cavok taf, originally holding LFPO as an alternate and had to hold for a while, then you decide to go no alternate ifr.
Would you do no alternate into Barcelona, Madrid because there is the ATC (possible holiding ) factor at these airports
Say you are in a 320 or if not how long in time in your a/c ?
What's your company policy on minumum fuel no alternate ?
Yes two independant runways,etc.
Due to traffic of hold too long how much fuel could you go down to before declaring a fuel emergency Mayday ?
You commit to the airport and then have to do a go around
Yeah dont like it but to avoid diverting to an alternate.
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Our outfit don't 'commit' to anything.
We carry alternate fuel for the most distant suitable alternate, without exception.
Dispatch without alternate?
Foolish in the extreme.
We carry alternate fuel for the most distant suitable alternate, without exception.
Dispatch without alternate?
Foolish in the extreme.
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During the planning stage "commitment" is not a factor as it is not allowed, it can become so inflight. However whenever you may get into the situation where you have to use final reserve its an automatic PAN-PAN and when you surely have to use final reserve its a MAYDAY.
We are allowed to use commtiment to stay, however personally i have never done it and dont plan to do so if i can help it.
We are allowed to use commtiment to stay, however personally i have never done it and dont plan to do so if i can help it.
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JAR regulations permit despatch without fuel for alternate provided 2 non intersecting runways, good weather and fifteen minutes extra manouvering fuel at destination.
Have done this a few times (mainly with training captains) though not really felt comfortable with it.
Have done this a few times (mainly with training captains) though not really felt comfortable with it.
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In the event of missed approach
You dispatch with alternate fuel but if you hold long enough you have to commit to alternate fuel.
If you were to get close to minimum fuel once committing to No alternate
Lets say Final Reserve plus fuel for a go around 600 kgs and 1200 kgs final reserve ( 30 minutes ) thats 1800 kgs
If you had to not wanting to be in that place at all., as a scenerio
You would declare prior to in the event of missed approach Fuel Mayday as you would be in danger of going into final reserve then ?
If you were to get close to minimum fuel once committing to No alternate
Lets say Final Reserve plus fuel for a go around 600 kgs and 1200 kgs final reserve ( 30 minutes ) thats 1800 kgs
If you had to not wanting to be in that place at all., as a scenerio
You would declare prior to in the event of missed approach Fuel Mayday as you would be in danger of going into final reserve then ?
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As FatFlyer already mentioned, you are allowed by JAR-OPS to dispatch with no alternate fuel if certain conditions are met.
However, in my short two-year experience as a pilot, I've seen more airports closing due to terrorist alert (Scotland last year) or RFF category falling below the minimum for commercial operations (one aeroplane had a tailpipe fire, most fire fighters went to help.... airport closed for about 30 minutes), rather than weather.
JAR-OPS only takes into account weather or runway closure... but I would not personally rule out the others factors that might close an airport.
If this happens in Madrid while you are descending thorught 10000 ft you've got nowhere to go.
Just my personal opinion
Ricky
However, in my short two-year experience as a pilot, I've seen more airports closing due to terrorist alert (Scotland last year) or RFF category falling below the minimum for commercial operations (one aeroplane had a tailpipe fire, most fire fighters went to help.... airport closed for about 30 minutes), rather than weather.
JAR-OPS only takes into account weather or runway closure... but I would not personally rule out the others factors that might close an airport.
If this happens in Madrid while you are descending thorught 10000 ft you've got nowhere to go.
Just my personal opinion
Ricky
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Yes, but.....
It's legal, in some cases, but not smart.
In my case, my company's SOP requires that we slect a proper alternate and carry fuel for this alternate for all flights.
Now, the practical side of this is....if you don't require an alternate under FAA/JAA...but your company SOPs require it...AND...you have everything going for you...you might consider reducing contingency fuel, extra fuel...things like that.
But, again, it's not a good idea be without an exit strategy...you never know what might turn up.
Fly Safe,
PantLoad
In my case, my company's SOP requires that we slect a proper alternate and carry fuel for this alternate for all flights.
Now, the practical side of this is....if you don't require an alternate under FAA/JAA...but your company SOPs require it...AND...you have everything going for you...you might consider reducing contingency fuel, extra fuel...things like that.
But, again, it's not a good idea be without an exit strategy...you never know what might turn up.
Fly Safe,
PantLoad
Comes down to which rules you fly under. In Australia you only have to carry an alternate if the weather at your destination is below certain criteria (known as alternate minima).
Flew 737s to single runway airports without any requirement for fuel to go elsewhere for years, and it still happens down there today.
Flew 737s to single runway airports without any requirement for fuel to go elsewhere for years, and it still happens down there today.
Exactly Wiz. Happens in Oz all the time. It causes the odd problem as well, mainly in Perth with unforecast fog.
I suspect that this is still allowed due to 1. the relatively low traffic density in the areas where it's an issue (PER, DWN, ASP, BRM) and 2. the geography. Holding an alternate for PER is the same as holding Oslo as an alternate for Manchester....
It's partly mitigated by the fact that we have compulsory holding fuel for temps and inters which as I understand the JAA does not.
I suspect that this is still allowed due to 1. the relatively low traffic density in the areas where it's an issue (PER, DWN, ASP, BRM) and 2. the geography. Holding an alternate for PER is the same as holding Oslo as an alternate for Manchester....
It's partly mitigated by the fact that we have compulsory holding fuel for temps and inters which as I understand the JAA does not.
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I went to Warsaw last Friday.
Nothing to trouble you on the wx.
Took 300kg extra anyway.
Got there with just enough to divert (to some dump 150nm away).
wx was horrid. Giant TS near the airfield.
Had to disobey ATC instructions and 'vector myself' to avoid scaring myself and pax or getting 'hit'.
Was the last to get in before airfield shut due wx.
Had WS on final but landed anyway.
Will I take less or more next time?
Nothing to trouble you on the wx.
Took 300kg extra anyway.
Got there with just enough to divert (to some dump 150nm away).
wx was horrid. Giant TS near the airfield.
Had to disobey ATC instructions and 'vector myself' to avoid scaring myself and pax or getting 'hit'.
Was the last to get in before airfield shut due wx.
Had WS on final but landed anyway.
Will I take less or more next time?
Moderator
Holding an alternate for PER is the same as holding Oslo as an alternate for Manchester
.. unless you were flying Electras .. in which case NZ for PER was an option ...
.. unless you were flying Electras .. in which case NZ for PER was an option ...
We always plan to arrive with alternate fuel plus final reserve and with the following proviso:
When proceeding to the destination, the alternate fuel may be used provided that:
a) Two separate runways are available and useable at the destination. Runways on the same aerodrome are considered to be separate runways when:
When proceeding to the destination, the alternate fuel may be used provided that:
a) Two separate runways are available and useable at the destination. Runways on the same aerodrome are considered to be separate runways when:
· They are separate landing runways which may overlay or cross such that if one of the runways is blocked, it will not prevent the planned type of operations on the other runway;
and
and
· Each of the landing runways have a separate approach procedure based on a separate aid.
b) The appropriate weather reports for the destination aerodromes fulfil the requirements of JAR OPS 1.297.
c) The remaining fuel after landing is not less than the Final Reserve Fuel.
b) The appropriate weather reports for the destination aerodromes fulfil the requirements of JAR OPS 1.297.
c) The remaining fuel after landing is not less than the Final Reserve Fuel.
Note:
If the Commander decides to continue the flight to the destination aerodrome without observing the provisions given above, an irregularity report has to be completed and sent to the Flight Operations Department that will forward it to the respective Authority.
Pretty clear and that is what we do.
Pretty clear and that is what we do.
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In NZ we can carry a min of 60mins fuel to a destination, which includes the instrument app fuel, provided. The weather forecast at destination is above 1000ft over the inst app minima and the vis is 5km or greater, and the destination has 2 parallel runways.
Should we be forced into landing with less than 30 minutes fuel remaining, then an emergency must be declared.
THe policy works OK, but does require an increased vigilance by the crew. However most places we go to have somewhere on the way that we could duck into for more fuel if required.
Should we be forced into landing with less than 30 minutes fuel remaining, then an emergency must be declared.
THe policy works OK, but does require an increased vigilance by the crew. However most places we go to have somewhere on the way that we could duck into for more fuel if required.
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FatFlyer
JAR regulations permit despatch without fuel for alternate provided 2 non intersecting runways, good weather and fifteen minutes extra manouvering fuel at destination
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EZY crews plan as standard if the following conditions are met:
1. less than 6 hours flight time.
2. 2 runways with their own apps on their own nav aids
3. 5000m vis 2000ft base
4. blablabla
5.15 min extra fuel
So when going to AMS/CDG/MAD/ why would you ever need to divert under CAVOK conditions?
Why not save the fuel?
Have you ever heard of anyone on a DIV from AMS to RHD?? 6 runways not a problem.
Its standard at many EZY bases to plan the fuel for the day based on the above No ALT Fuel reduction method. So min fuel on landing would be about 1500kg or about 1800kg if you did not burn your cont.
What many guys do is actualy not go that close to the wire, for example if your Final + Div came to about 2300 but planning with NO Alt gave you 1800 then you might elect to plan to land with 2000Kg to have a bit more fat in the system.
Crews know the ruels and have had the training and support from the comany and if extra fuel is required then it is taken with no questions.
No Alt Fuel planning is done by many crews on a daily basis and we dont run out of fuel! (YET)
1. less than 6 hours flight time.
2. 2 runways with their own apps on their own nav aids
3. 5000m vis 2000ft base
4. blablabla
5.15 min extra fuel
So when going to AMS/CDG/MAD/ why would you ever need to divert under CAVOK conditions?
Why not save the fuel?
Have you ever heard of anyone on a DIV from AMS to RHD?? 6 runways not a problem.
Its standard at many EZY bases to plan the fuel for the day based on the above No ALT Fuel reduction method. So min fuel on landing would be about 1500kg or about 1800kg if you did not burn your cont.
What many guys do is actualy not go that close to the wire, for example if your Final + Div came to about 2300 but planning with NO Alt gave you 1800 then you might elect to plan to land with 2000Kg to have a bit more fat in the system.
Crews know the ruels and have had the training and support from the comany and if extra fuel is required then it is taken with no questions.
No Alt Fuel planning is done by many crews on a daily basis and we dont run out of fuel! (YET)
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Quote M. Fish Oct '87 I think "Don't worry, there is no hurricane on its way..." hmmm, got to love the Met. Me thinks if you only load up the fuel for dest plus some holding then fine, untill, yep its going to happen, the brown smelly stuff is gonna hit the fan.
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Went to CDG this morning, 738 FL380, was optimum. We took 11T fuel, the plo gave us 10,200. Had enough to divert to EBBR, if needs be, Should'nt though as both of us and the plane are CAT III A . Saved the company a few quid as it was a tankering flight, just. Had the usual 400 and 1200 reserves. Landed with 4050 (ish) plog would have been 3400
This debate keeps on repeating itself in various threads. But it is an important subject so can you clarify a couple of points for me crewcostundercontrol?
What is meant by item 4 blablabla and are these airbus figures?
For the 737 we use 40kg per min which is 1200kg final reserve and 15 minutes additional is therefore 600kg. This gives a minimum of 1800kg, which is pretty similar to diversion fuel for most of our german destinations.
For your flights to Berlin SXF, single runway at the moment, obviously you will need an alternate. If you land with less than alternate plus final reserve fuel the german LBA requires notification in this case as per Rundschreiben 1/2007, which I am sure you are dutifully providing. Must be a lot of paperwork!
What is meant by item 4 blablabla and are these airbus figures?
For the 737 we use 40kg per min which is 1200kg final reserve and 15 minutes additional is therefore 600kg. This gives a minimum of 1800kg, which is pretty similar to diversion fuel for most of our german destinations.
For your flights to Berlin SXF, single runway at the moment, obviously you will need an alternate. If you land with less than alternate plus final reserve fuel the german LBA requires notification in this case as per Rundschreiben 1/2007, which I am sure you are dutifully providing. Must be a lot of paperwork!
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At Westjet, we are using No Alternate all the time with no real increase in risk. Our company SOP's dictate that our minimum fuel is 5000 lbs at destination. 3200 lbs for the legal requirement then the remaining 1800lbs is for unforseen circumstances in a No Alt environment. I have seen IFR alternate fuels that calculate less than 5000lbs. However, we always carry the min of 5000. When I accept a No Alternate plan, I usually check the airports nearby that I know I can get to if required. No Alternate is not a problem.
lederhosen
Surely your fuel burn changes with aircraft weight?
We just half the PLOG final reserve figure to get a fuel figure for 15 minutes holding.
First I've heard of a requirment to land at SXF with ALT + FINAL RESERVE.
Do you have a link for a reference? I've tried searching the LBA site and German AIP but I've had no luck.
Cheers
SW
Surely your fuel burn changes with aircraft weight?
We just half the PLOG final reserve figure to get a fuel figure for 15 minutes holding.
First I've heard of a requirment to land at SXF with ALT + FINAL RESERVE.
Do you have a link for a reference? I've tried searching the LBA site and German AIP but I've had no luck.
Cheers
SW