Raw Data ILS 737NG
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Raw Data ILS 737NG
Hello All
I flew my first raw data ILS's in the 737 sim as part of my TR yesterday and was wondering if anyone out there would like to share some advice on technique. My instructor said I was making good progress and I was happy with the way he had taught us to fly the aircraft during raw data procedures. I got the pitch/power settings into my head i.e. Flap 5 level flight around 63% N1 and +7 nose up, then Flap 30 Gear down around 55-56% N1 and +2-3 nose up. I realise these are pretty ball park, but they worked well on the day.
I would definetly admit that I need to fine tune my scan, however I know this will come. Getting used to the Lateral Deviation Indicator to fly the LLZ was also interesting! My instructor wanted me to fly the G/S all the way down until the Rad Alt sounded 50 RA. I must admit, I probably wasn't anticipating this quickly enough and as a result I would loose track towards the end. I also found that making the transition from instruments to visual reference that close to the ground made my landings feel a little rushed. I felt I was flaring too much and as a result induced a tendency to float. This was a bit annoying as I have been happy with my landings so far (although previously I had been given more time to make the adjustment between the inside to the outside world).
I know it is early days in my training, however I would be grateful of any tips or hints from seasoned pro's. Many thanks, CK
I flew my first raw data ILS's in the 737 sim as part of my TR yesterday and was wondering if anyone out there would like to share some advice on technique. My instructor said I was making good progress and I was happy with the way he had taught us to fly the aircraft during raw data procedures. I got the pitch/power settings into my head i.e. Flap 5 level flight around 63% N1 and +7 nose up, then Flap 30 Gear down around 55-56% N1 and +2-3 nose up. I realise these are pretty ball park, but they worked well on the day.
I would definetly admit that I need to fine tune my scan, however I know this will come. Getting used to the Lateral Deviation Indicator to fly the LLZ was also interesting! My instructor wanted me to fly the G/S all the way down until the Rad Alt sounded 50 RA. I must admit, I probably wasn't anticipating this quickly enough and as a result I would loose track towards the end. I also found that making the transition from instruments to visual reference that close to the ground made my landings feel a little rushed. I felt I was flaring too much and as a result induced a tendency to float. This was a bit annoying as I have been happy with my landings so far (although previously I had been given more time to make the adjustment between the inside to the outside world).
I know it is early days in my training, however I would be grateful of any tips or hints from seasoned pro's. Many thanks, CK
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Hi Kilo, sounds like you are enjoying yourself.
You are right , scan and flying by the numbers is everything in the 73 raw data.
Not sure if you have done the single engine stuff yet but that’s when the benefit of improving the scan will really give the reward, as getting slow requires a lot more power and thus a lot more rudder input and then it all gets a little messy.
The only advice I can give you is to nail the profiles so you don’t have to think about the next call or what you are going to do next, that way you can free up more brainpower for that scan.
Also bring the IVSI into your scan, it’s a really good indication of how things are going. Ball park, half your ground speed and add a zero, I.e. 140kts is 700 feet a minute descent required.
Hope that helps, and enjoy it it’s a great course and then the fun really starts.
Flyfish
You are right , scan and flying by the numbers is everything in the 73 raw data.
Not sure if you have done the single engine stuff yet but that’s when the benefit of improving the scan will really give the reward, as getting slow requires a lot more power and thus a lot more rudder input and then it all gets a little messy.
The only advice I can give you is to nail the profiles so you don’t have to think about the next call or what you are going to do next, that way you can free up more brainpower for that scan.
Also bring the IVSI into your scan, it’s a really good indication of how things are going. Ball park, half your ground speed and add a zero, I.e. 140kts is 700 feet a minute descent required.
Hope that helps, and enjoy it it’s a great course and then the fun really starts.
Flyfish
No seasoned pro, but one thing I see happen a lot is overcorrecting, both in pitch and roll. You need to spot possible deviations in time, but these deviations are usually a result of either bad pitch, or bad bank. Especially in the sim where you (at least we do) usually have a fairly steady wind.
Pitch:
In real life and even with light gusty conditions you have some stick work to do to keep the airplane wings level, in the sim this is hardly ever the case. Flying raw data, I quite frequently totally loosen the grip on the stick because this way I'm sure I'm flying in a stabilized way with small corrections. Trim is very important, but the last step. Don't change your attitude with the trim, use the stick, then trim.
There's a rule of thumb: TAS/60 * 100 is the change in descent/climb rate for 1° attitude change. At ie 150kts this means every 1° in pitch is a change of 250fpm less or more. That's more than enough once you are stabilized. 3° gives you 750fpm less or more, which is close to the ground the ABSOLUTE maximum correction. 3° pitch change on the glide gives you a descent range from level flight to 1500fpm descent. This means at pretty much all times for a 30°flaps ILS, pitch stays between 0 and 5° initially if you're not on the glide, closer to the ground that becomes 1°-4° for MAX corrections. But usually 2-3° will do it for an ILS.
Roll:
30° for the intercepts, once established 10° bank max far out, reducing to 5° max bank closing in on the runway. Use every possible aid, ie a track line, or track diamond. Also check your thrust. Too many people can't get the wings to stay level because they don't notice they have a slight assymetric thrust. Check your N1's. Correct gently, and keep use your hand to block the throttles in their relative position from eachother (I don't know if I'm making any sense to you now...)
Thrust:
Bleed the speed off and approaching the Vref + 10 get the thrust in, initially about 45%, gradually increasing to 55%.
So in general, don't overcorrect. Too many people lose one item out of sight (usually attitude or bank) and trying to come back they react with an impulse, overcorrect and make the correction too big leading to a certain unstability.
Good luck and enjoy the raw data! It's pure fun...
Pitch:
In real life and even with light gusty conditions you have some stick work to do to keep the airplane wings level, in the sim this is hardly ever the case. Flying raw data, I quite frequently totally loosen the grip on the stick because this way I'm sure I'm flying in a stabilized way with small corrections. Trim is very important, but the last step. Don't change your attitude with the trim, use the stick, then trim.
There's a rule of thumb: TAS/60 * 100 is the change in descent/climb rate for 1° attitude change. At ie 150kts this means every 1° in pitch is a change of 250fpm less or more. That's more than enough once you are stabilized. 3° gives you 750fpm less or more, which is close to the ground the ABSOLUTE maximum correction. 3° pitch change on the glide gives you a descent range from level flight to 1500fpm descent. This means at pretty much all times for a 30°flaps ILS, pitch stays between 0 and 5° initially if you're not on the glide, closer to the ground that becomes 1°-4° for MAX corrections. But usually 2-3° will do it for an ILS.
Roll:
30° for the intercepts, once established 10° bank max far out, reducing to 5° max bank closing in on the runway. Use every possible aid, ie a track line, or track diamond. Also check your thrust. Too many people can't get the wings to stay level because they don't notice they have a slight assymetric thrust. Check your N1's. Correct gently, and keep use your hand to block the throttles in their relative position from eachother (I don't know if I'm making any sense to you now...)
Thrust:
Bleed the speed off and approaching the Vref + 10 get the thrust in, initially about 45%, gradually increasing to 55%.
So in general, don't overcorrect. Too many people lose one item out of sight (usually attitude or bank) and trying to come back they react with an impulse, overcorrect and make the correction too big leading to a certain unstability.
Good luck and enjoy the raw data! It's pure fun...
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It does have FPV and is well worth using yet seldom used!
I use it quite often for visual approaches as well as gusty conditions.
End of the day, it's an aircraft that flies like any other down an ILS . . .
I use it quite often for visual approaches as well as gusty conditions.
End of the day, it's an aircraft that flies like any other down an ILS . . .
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Hi Kilo:
Brace has some good points. I'll add mine as I've been teaching it for a few years.
Firstly, as with many things, keep it simple. Knowing the power/attitude settings certainly helps make it easier. Another thing is to fly the G/S in landing configuration. Thus you fly with no speed or configuration changes. Therefore any power & trim changes will be small. N1% must be correct and equal, so scan the gauges. 3% difference will cause yaw and LOC tracking problems.
Basic technique is that once on the ILS, N1% freezes speed, attitude holds V/S & G/S and trim holds attitude. Thus if you are on speed with stable power & stable trim, changes to maintain G/S will be tiny. Now you have more capacity to concentrate on LOC. 10 degrees bank max and preferably 5 is good advice. Fly with arm rests down and rest your elbow on them. Adjust them so your hand falls comfortably on the bottom corner of the yoke. (you can still lift your thumb to activate the trim). This helps you fly gently from the wrist with a soft touch. If you fly with a tight grip at the top of the yoke you will fly stiffly from the shoulder and not be relaxed. Corrections, then, will tend to be agricultural.
Remember attitude changes must be small. The a/c box symbol is about 2 degrees in attitude. A change in attitude of 1 box = 600-700fpm. Thus changes to correct G/S deviations should be 1/2 box. This is 50% of the G/S V/S and is plenty. Flying from the wrists helps make delicate adjustments easier. The common mistake is to fly nose heavy out of trim. Remember the control column will always centre. Thus after you've applied elevator to change attitude, and trimmed out the force, the control column will centre. It is common to see students holding a back force. Release the column and note any change in attitude & V/S, or not.
LOC: Use APP mode. You are flying an ILS not a MAP. You will get a common type rating for B737. The classics do not have GPS, thus there will be map shift. Who knows, there may be map shift on the GPS. (The military did put such a shift on the system during Gulf wars.) The trick is to centre the ILS display HSI style and keep the trackline over it. It is a huge picture and lets you see the slightest deviation. It will automatically correct for any change in drift or show up any deviation trend and allow quick correction. Being in final configuration, and flying from the wrist allows tracking the LOC to be achieved easily and gently.
The Track line allows you to look into the future. If you see the track line not centred over the ILS display, apply 5 degrees of bank to correct it. (This could be caused by a drift change, a small subtle bank angle being applied, or unequal N1%). If you see the LOC beam bar not centered, apply 5 degrees bank to set the track line off in the direction of the beam bar; fly left or right. The amount of attack depends on distance from the Rwy, but if this is on the G/S below 2500' a 5 degree attack should be enough. When the beam bar is centred apply 5 degrees bank to re-centre the track line and keep it there.
Using APP mode allows you to see the smallest deviation, and the large HSI symbol allows very accurate LOC tracking.
At 2500' agl platform level flght.
G/S: There are different techniques to achieve landing configuration at G/S capture. FCTM recommends Gear Down F15 at G/S alive. This will give N1 65%and about 7 degrees. Stop the balloon as flaps extend. Now it depends if F30or F40.
F30: At 1 dot call F30 and set 53-55% and keep level. The speed should decay to Vfly (Vref + 5) as G/S is captured. Small N1% adjustments should be made to match the G/S capture rate to the speed decay. This is the same technique employed in SE ILS's. At G/S capture set 2 degrees and trim the elevator.
F40: 1.5 dot F25 leave N1% at 64% at 1/2 dot select F40. The power setting at F15 is the same as F40 on finals. Thus there are no or very little power changes during the configuration changes and thus a/c control is easier.
If you wish to take F15 at 1 dot then you must reduce power to about 40% to slow down in time and take F30 at G/S capture and be on speed; set 2 degrees attitude and increase power to 53-55%. This will cause the nose to rise when in fact you wish to lower it. It all happens rather quickly and needs slick pitch control. Do-able but more difficult in your early days.
You can now concentrate on LOC.
Your scan will be horizontal. In RHS. Attitude-V/S-G/S-ATT-IAS-Tk line-N1%-Tk line-Att-bank angle(wings level or as required) Repeat, but N1% can be left out if IAS is correct.
I can't see the point of flying down to 50'. Even 200' is too low IMHO. 400' should be enough for training & checking.
If you lose the plot of both LOC & G/S go for the G/S first with a small change in attitude & V/S. Once this adjustment is in place have a look at the LOC. Avoid stirring the controls and chasing both at once. In the early days this is too difficult. Hopefully the ideas above will avoid this.
The FPV has no Boeing SOP. It's a spin off from HUD's. In the early days, IMHO, it is better to grasp quickly what attitude & N1% setting will achieve what performance. Thus next time you want to achieve a particular task you know what energy to give to the aeroplane. So, discover & remember what attitude achieves what ROD.
Brace has some good points. I'll add mine as I've been teaching it for a few years.
Firstly, as with many things, keep it simple. Knowing the power/attitude settings certainly helps make it easier. Another thing is to fly the G/S in landing configuration. Thus you fly with no speed or configuration changes. Therefore any power & trim changes will be small. N1% must be correct and equal, so scan the gauges. 3% difference will cause yaw and LOC tracking problems.
Basic technique is that once on the ILS, N1% freezes speed, attitude holds V/S & G/S and trim holds attitude. Thus if you are on speed with stable power & stable trim, changes to maintain G/S will be tiny. Now you have more capacity to concentrate on LOC. 10 degrees bank max and preferably 5 is good advice. Fly with arm rests down and rest your elbow on them. Adjust them so your hand falls comfortably on the bottom corner of the yoke. (you can still lift your thumb to activate the trim). This helps you fly gently from the wrist with a soft touch. If you fly with a tight grip at the top of the yoke you will fly stiffly from the shoulder and not be relaxed. Corrections, then, will tend to be agricultural.
Remember attitude changes must be small. The a/c box symbol is about 2 degrees in attitude. A change in attitude of 1 box = 600-700fpm. Thus changes to correct G/S deviations should be 1/2 box. This is 50% of the G/S V/S and is plenty. Flying from the wrists helps make delicate adjustments easier. The common mistake is to fly nose heavy out of trim. Remember the control column will always centre. Thus after you've applied elevator to change attitude, and trimmed out the force, the control column will centre. It is common to see students holding a back force. Release the column and note any change in attitude & V/S, or not.
LOC: Use APP mode. You are flying an ILS not a MAP. You will get a common type rating for B737. The classics do not have GPS, thus there will be map shift. Who knows, there may be map shift on the GPS. (The military did put such a shift on the system during Gulf wars.) The trick is to centre the ILS display HSI style and keep the trackline over it. It is a huge picture and lets you see the slightest deviation. It will automatically correct for any change in drift or show up any deviation trend and allow quick correction. Being in final configuration, and flying from the wrist allows tracking the LOC to be achieved easily and gently.
The Track line allows you to look into the future. If you see the track line not centred over the ILS display, apply 5 degrees of bank to correct it. (This could be caused by a drift change, a small subtle bank angle being applied, or unequal N1%). If you see the LOC beam bar not centered, apply 5 degrees bank to set the track line off in the direction of the beam bar; fly left or right. The amount of attack depends on distance from the Rwy, but if this is on the G/S below 2500' a 5 degree attack should be enough. When the beam bar is centred apply 5 degrees bank to re-centre the track line and keep it there.
Using APP mode allows you to see the smallest deviation, and the large HSI symbol allows very accurate LOC tracking.
At 2500' agl platform level flght.
G/S: There are different techniques to achieve landing configuration at G/S capture. FCTM recommends Gear Down F15 at G/S alive. This will give N1 65%and about 7 degrees. Stop the balloon as flaps extend. Now it depends if F30or F40.
F30: At 1 dot call F30 and set 53-55% and keep level. The speed should decay to Vfly (Vref + 5) as G/S is captured. Small N1% adjustments should be made to match the G/S capture rate to the speed decay. This is the same technique employed in SE ILS's. At G/S capture set 2 degrees and trim the elevator.
F40: 1.5 dot F25 leave N1% at 64% at 1/2 dot select F40. The power setting at F15 is the same as F40 on finals. Thus there are no or very little power changes during the configuration changes and thus a/c control is easier.
If you wish to take F15 at 1 dot then you must reduce power to about 40% to slow down in time and take F30 at G/S capture and be on speed; set 2 degrees attitude and increase power to 53-55%. This will cause the nose to rise when in fact you wish to lower it. It all happens rather quickly and needs slick pitch control. Do-able but more difficult in your early days.
You can now concentrate on LOC.
Your scan will be horizontal. In RHS. Attitude-V/S-G/S-ATT-IAS-Tk line-N1%-Tk line-Att-bank angle(wings level or as required) Repeat, but N1% can be left out if IAS is correct.
I can't see the point of flying down to 50'. Even 200' is too low IMHO. 400' should be enough for training & checking.
If you lose the plot of both LOC & G/S go for the G/S first with a small change in attitude & V/S. Once this adjustment is in place have a look at the LOC. Avoid stirring the controls and chasing both at once. In the early days this is too difficult. Hopefully the ideas above will avoid this.
The FPV has no Boeing SOP. It's a spin off from HUD's. In the early days, IMHO, it is better to grasp quickly what attitude & N1% setting will achieve what performance. Thus next time you want to achieve a particular task you know what energy to give to the aeroplane. So, discover & remember what attitude achieves what ROD.
Last edited by RAT 5; 26th May 2008 at 11:29.
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Wow guys, thanks very much for taking the time to reply - especially RAT 5 and BraceBrace. Great insight which has helped open my mind to the technique required. More of the same in the sim tomorrow so I´m looking forward to putting this all into practice. Cheers once again, CK
P.S. Hope all is well up north Flyfish? Another busy summer touring the Canaries and Balearics lies ahead!
P.S. Hope all is well up north Flyfish? Another busy summer touring the Canaries and Balearics lies ahead!
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I am a simple guy.
I only do 3 things:
1) keep the trackline over the runway and runway extention
2) look at the FPV for my 3 deg or what ever the ILS is
3) back up with the raw data....
I only do 3 things:
1) keep the trackline over the runway and runway extention
2) look at the FPV for my 3 deg or what ever the ILS is
3) back up with the raw data....
