Pilot Incap at 80/100 - what to do?
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Guppy,
Why is keeping the take-over push button pressed incase of incapacitation not mentioned in the abnormals in FCOM 3 (Crew Incapacitation), if it is so important ?
Why is keeping the take-over push button pressed incase of incapacitation not mentioned in the abnormals in FCOM 3 (Crew Incapacitation), if it is so important ?
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Guppy,
Why is keeping the take-over push button pressed incase of incapacitation not mentioned in the abnormals in FCOM 3 (Crew Incapacitation), if it is so important ?
Why is keeping the take-over push button pressed incase of incapacitation not mentioned in the abnormals in FCOM 3 (Crew Incapacitation), if it is so important ?
What exactly is a take-over button, and what are you talking about?
This is why companies need to stop putting 300 hour pilots in positions of responsibility.
Guppy--I think that all that is Airbus operational speak--I believe Airbus includes some sort of 'priority switch' in the stick
and FCOM is a cheap AFM/POH replacement if wording such as "In a dire emergency land as soon as possible" aren't included, half of them--well, they'd just burn/fall outta the freakin' sky
--- I agree, Guppy---- but worst of all not only is experience and judgment/decision making capability--- lacking---but so is knowledge --if they tried to at least "wash out the delicates in ground school"
--if MAY be a Just bit better
---folks may think it's a mean sentiment---but so are crashes
and FCOM is a cheap AFM/POH replacement if wording such as "In a dire emergency land as soon as possible" aren't included, half of them--well, they'd just burn/fall outta the freakin' sky
--- I agree, Guppy---- but worst of all not only is experience and judgment/decision making capability--- lacking---but so is knowledge --if they tried to at least "wash out the delicates in ground school"
--if MAY be a Just bit better---folks may think it's a mean sentiment---but so are crashes
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To stop or not to stop....
I had an interesting debate recently with a colleague. My leg from XXX to YYY (longhaul), carrying about 63t of gas in a 767-300. so hevy weight, and overweight landing if immediate return in a hurry..
Briefed the standard stuff, then went on to mention if he were to drop dead or words to that effect....
As a reasonably experienced F/O I would feel quite happy carrying out an RTO upto a point, I make a point of asking to do one from RHS at every LPC/OPC as a training element. I usually decide on this arbitrary 'in my head' figure on the day based on a number of points, such as weather/weights/wind/runway length etc etc..
When mentioning this, my colleague insisted that once the 80kts call was made and responded to, we were going into the air unless he stopped the a/c for whatever reason....prior to V1 of course!
I questioned his logic and was somewhat beaten into submission, especially as we had 2 log sectors ahead of us in the next 2 days....
Briefed the standard stuff, then went on to mention if he were to drop dead or words to that effect....
As a reasonably experienced F/O I would feel quite happy carrying out an RTO upto a point, I make a point of asking to do one from RHS at every LPC/OPC as a training element. I usually decide on this arbitrary 'in my head' figure on the day based on a number of points, such as weather/weights/wind/runway length etc etc..
When mentioning this, my colleague insisted that once the 80kts call was made and responded to, we were going into the air unless he stopped the a/c for whatever reason....prior to V1 of course!
I questioned his logic and was somewhat beaten into submission, especially as we had 2 log sectors ahead of us in the next 2 days....
757jetjockey ----
if the captain's incapacitation occurs concurrently with EFATO before V1 stop after Go----35' vertically and 200'/300/ horizontally is all you may have---IFF {IFF= if and only if} the RTO/OEI--ops- are done to certificated air carrier standards--that you've briefed--
if there was no EFATO just incapacitation then 80 knots is a good number---still in the low speed regime---pilot incapacitation to me is no reason to risk an RTO--in the high speed regime past 80 knots--of course in such a situation--you'd be PIC and it would therefore be incumbent upon you to carry out whatever action in your view are required to ensure safety of flight---For instance you don't want to make a overweight landing [for whatever reason] and and decide to stretch it to 100knots--as long as you do it safely and with a good reason--but 80 knot is a more reasonable number in most events---
Edited to add: Good reasoning
if the captain's incapacitation occurs concurrently with EFATO before V1 stop after Go----35' vertically and 200'/300/ horizontally is all you may have---IFF {IFF= if and only if} the RTO/OEI--ops- are done to certificated air carrier standards--that you've briefed--
if there was no EFATO just incapacitation then 80 knots is a good number---still in the low speed regime---pilot incapacitation to me is no reason to risk an RTO--in the high speed regime past 80 knots--of course in such a situation--you'd be PIC and it would therefore be incumbent upon you to carry out whatever action in your view are required to ensure safety of flight---For instance you don't want to make a overweight landing [for whatever reason] and and decide to stretch it to 100knots--as long as you do it safely and with a good reason--but 80 knot is a more reasonable number in most events---
Edited to add: Good reasoning
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 21st Jul 2008 at 02:52.
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the problem is as an F/O on a PM sector, you would never reject at 80kts because the first incapacitation call of 80?.........followed by 90?........ then think oh dear and decide to 'Reject' as we now say... you are going to be up around the 100-110kt mark anyway at that stage and fast approaching the V1 in most cases.....
plus theres RTO above 84kts i think which is always a good help at bringing things to a halt as well....
My main point was that I try to be sensible and practical about it, and weigh up all the pro'/cons on the day, most of the time debating it with the skipper either on turn around or in the briefing...
I dont think it should be set in stone as it often is with some people..
plus theres RTO above 84kts i think which is always a good help at bringing things to a halt as well....
My main point was that I try to be sensible and practical about it, and weigh up all the pro'/cons on the day, most of the time debating it with the skipper either on turn around or in the briefing...
I dont think it should be set in stone as it often is with some people..
I see nothing wrong with you thought processes, but I think unless there are circumscribing conditions CIG 0 RVR-3 and you require a long flight to the alternate [require a TO alternate] I may stop a little past 80 up to 100--or you're on a contaminated RWY--I'd GO---what ever entails the lesser risk at the time in your judgment--bases on outside factors and circumscribing conditions--not clear cut answer--but you'd then be the commander---and as with all PICs--you'll have the final authority, but then they'll blame YOU for anything that goes wrong ---that's the responsibility!!!
PA
!!!PA
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757 jetjockey
I agree with your views on this. I think you have to consider each take-off and have a look at the conditions on the day.I understand the Go minded view and generally agree with it.
Taking an airliner into the air single crew is not something I would take lightly,if this 'failure' was a QRH drill it would definitely say land at the nearest suitable airport.The incapacitated pilot may be restricting controls or about to jump on the rudder?
You may well save their life by getting them medical attention sooner.If you went from 80 kts (call it 95 after the calls) out of say Heathrow and the guy died while you were dumping (in every way
)you may even find yourself in court defending your decision.
Chances are very good IMO that if you're not on the limit for takeoff and less than say V1-20 you would successfully stop the aircraft. On the Boeings all you really have to do is close the thrust levers and you'll get RTO braking for starters, then reverse will deploy the speedbrakes - it may not be textbook but it would do the job.
That having been said I'm now based at Luton and I would be much more inclined to be go minded there with its aircraft carrier type geography.
Glad to see that you are giving it serious thought - good stuff.
I agree with your views on this. I think you have to consider each take-off and have a look at the conditions on the day.I understand the Go minded view and generally agree with it.
Taking an airliner into the air single crew is not something I would take lightly,if this 'failure' was a QRH drill it would definitely say land at the nearest suitable airport.The incapacitated pilot may be restricting controls or about to jump on the rudder?
You may well save their life by getting them medical attention sooner.If you went from 80 kts (call it 95 after the calls) out of say Heathrow and the guy died while you were dumping (in every way
)you may even find yourself in court defending your decision.Chances are very good IMO that if you're not on the limit for takeoff and less than say V1-20 you would successfully stop the aircraft. On the Boeings all you really have to do is close the thrust levers and you'll get RTO braking for starters, then reverse will deploy the speedbrakes - it may not be textbook but it would do the job.
That having been said I'm now based at Luton and I would be much more inclined to be go minded there with its aircraft carrier type geography.
Glad to see that you are giving it serious thought - good stuff.
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Dear Guppy,
I guess guys with a lot of experience such as yourself certainly lack the knowledge that the A/P disconnect p/b on the sidestick is also the priority take-over push button. Keeping it held for 40 secs isolates inputs from the other side. I would suggest some more reading and application my friend. Its quite evident you're lacking what is neccessary. I certainly hope this post puts it in simple english for you.
Happy Landings
I guess guys with a lot of experience such as yourself certainly lack the knowledge that the A/P disconnect p/b on the sidestick is also the priority take-over push button. Keeping it held for 40 secs isolates inputs from the other side. I would suggest some more reading and application my friend. Its quite evident you're lacking what is neccessary. I certainly hope this post puts it in simple english for you.
Happy Landings
